Tracktion Software

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:36 pm

Hey all,

So I'm doing this piece that's basically an 80's arena-rock song. Think Quiet Riot meets "Rock You Like a Hurricane"-era Scorpions.

I have 2 rhythm guitars, 1 bass guitar, and a drum track so far, plus guitar solos.

I'm doing "OK" at mixing the guitars, and the solos are jumping out fairly well. But it's about the damn bass. No matter what I do, it doesn't have any presence or punch. All it's doing is adding muck to the mix that's getting lost with the other frequencies. Instead of sounding like a bass part, it sounds like I'm just adding gloomy noise to the track.

As far as I can tell, it's fighting for space with Rhythm Guitar 1, which has a fairly strong "bass" presence. I tried backing that off a bit, but in some cases my tone was unfavourably altered. So instead, I tried adding more high frequencies and air to the bass to make the attack pop out a bit more. No dice.

Rhythm Guitar 1 is panned left with a wee bit of reverb, and the Bass is panned centre with no reverb. That SHOULD give it a little bit of separation, but nope. It's a mess.

Also, I'm having a hard time adjusting levels. My ears seem distinctly untrustworthy when I'm listening to my own work, even though I've been known to provide pretty good feedback for others. The bass in particular-- I keep turning it up because I can't hear it, but then when I notice it, I realize that it's partially the volume that's creating the 'mud', and I back it off. Then I lose it again.

I've heard that compressing the shit out of a bass is a good plan, but using the Classic Compressor, I'm feeling no love. Blockfish is a BIT better, but still not ideal.

Any advice?

Greg

GaryG · Post by **GaryG** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:51 pm

how about running the rhythm guitar through a high-pass filter? start with a low cutoff and progressively filter the bass-content out until (hopefully) it stops clashing with the bass. i find this often a lot more effective than simply turning the bass down with an eq.

failing that get Bomber Harris in, he'll show you how it's done.

.g

RustedMonkey · Post by **RustedMonkey** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:59 pm

This is a tough question especially without a clip to go by but…

Re-record the bass but do so giving the high and low frequency range a boost. Also cut the mid range a bit. First off that will give it that snazzy low piano string sound that was very hip in the 80’s. Secondly, if the bass was recorded with the highs cut in the first place your not going to be able to EQ them in. You cant EQ in a frequency that isn’t there to begin with. The compression is important mainly because the bass is such a foundation for the song that any variation in volume will be easily noticed.

After that you may still have to cut the low end in the guitar but the bass itself should fill in for the low-end frequency and give it the punch you’re looking for. The guitar should really be more mid ranged based than anything. I know a distorted guitar with cranked low-end sounds bad ass when you are just sitting around playing alone but in a complete mix it just sounds like mud.

Rik · Post by **Rik** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:34 am

Lunch Money wrote:Rhythm Guitar 1 is panned left with a wee bit of reverb, and the Bass is panned centre with no reverb. That SHOULD give it a little bit of separation, but nope. It's a mess.

I noticed that some reverb tend to add lots of low frequencies. Given your issues, I would not fx the guitars at all... I also recommend to high pass the guitars about 100-200 (with guitars, you can often even go higher). And for the bass, try a multiband compressor, that saved me for many instruments. You can just boost the frequency range that you want to shift out and compress all the others frequencies.
And are you looking for a low frequency bass or are you leaving the low frequencies for the kick ?

Erik.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:20 am

Thanks for the replies guys. I'll muck around a bit, and if I'm still getting no satisfaction, I'll post a sound clip. To address a few questions and points, though:

I recorded the bass flat. I was tempted to EQ going into the card, but I decided that I can always remove frequencies later. So there's technically a full range of frequencies there. HOWEVER, I'm wondering that my budget mixer which has served me well so far is now starting to show its lowly status.

I agree about the guitars-- I took of the reverb and it helped out right away; also, I've always been a firm believer in mid-range punch for guitar rather that scooped rumbling. I'm more of a crunch guy than a metal guy, and even in this song there's not a lot of extreme distortion.

A question, though-- how do I go about setting up a high-pass? And if someone has a link explaining low- and high-pass filter, I'd appreciate it. I somewhat understand the theory (a quick 2-line reminder would help, though!) but I'm not sure if any of my EQ can do it effectively. I think I have every fairly well-known free VST out there, so those are the tools at my disposal if anyone can recommend one.

For multi-band compression I'm in the same boat-- I have the Slim Slow Slider C3, and that's about it.

Also, how do I go about correcting phase issues? Is it just a matter of using a plugin with "invert", and switching between them to see which sounds better?

Greg

Rik · Post by **Rik** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:56 am

Lunch Money wrote:I recorded the bass flat. I was tempted to EQ going into the card, but I decided that I can always remove frequencies later. So there's technically a full range of frequencies there. HOWEVER, I'm wondering that my budget mixer which has served me well so far is now starting to show its lowly status.

Oh no it is probably not the mixer's fault. They all sound strange like that with direct recording and there is usually way too much low frequencies, so you need to remove lots of them (you can high pass around 20-100 Hz). The easiest to get a "metal" kind of sound is to use an amp sim like Trash or Amplitube. That will round the bass sound.

For high pass, I am not using traktion so I can't help. I usually do my eq + compression with WaveArt trackplug.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:07 am

Cheers!

I forgot to mention, I DID switch to an amp sim rather than direct-- I'm going through Green Machine Amp II, and it makes a difference. Not sure how to do a high-pass 20-100 Hz, though. I suspect that if I can suss this, it'll be key.

I've downloaded Kjaerhus' Golden Compressors and EQ to test out, but I'd welcome any freeware suggestions, because I won't be able to buy them (or any other plugs) any time soon and they expire in 14 days. I'd feel guilty even using them for any sort of finished product but I might be able to get a bit of an education out of them with regards to this shelving.

Greg

GaryG · Post by **GaryG** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:18 am

re: High Pass :

Literally what it says, allows only frequencies HIGHer than the cutoff freq through (low pass is the opposite)

Just play with Tracktions native filter - Low/High Pass filter.

Insert into track that needs 'thinning', make sure you've selected High pass in the properties box then slide the slider until the freq. reads around 100hz. If it still sounds muddy, increase the cutoff (filter out more bass), if it sounds too thin, reduce it (to allow more lower freqs through).

.g

Rudy · Post by **Rudy** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:08 am

beeing a base-player myself, i was never satisfied with the sound of recordings, but now i find MDA combo quite useful, it's a Speaker-Cabinet emulation and it's free

MickGael · Post by **MickGael** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:33 pm

I noticed that some reverb tend to add lots of low frequencies. Given your issues, I would not fx the guitars at all.

Hey Lunch money,

I'm a guitar player myself, and I find that some single-line delay works well to add "depth" in a dense mix. Often, I'll pan the dry guitar, say, L-24, and return the delay somewhere to the right

For what it's worth...

chriss · Post by **chriss** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:38 pm

First off you gotta roll the lows off the guitars. The bass needs its own frequency's. This should not effect the tone of the main guitar that much. If it does there are bigger problems, are you soloing the lead guitars when you roll the lows off? just listen to the bass and guitar parts together. How is the interaction between the kick and bass? Have you tried ducking? Here is a plugin that may help http://www.db-audioware.com/dbd.htm
here is a explanation of ducking
http://www.homerecordingconnection.com/ ... 4009&frm=2
also consider rerecording the bass, I usually have 2 mics for any bass session and 1 direct channel. I have a cab mic and mic on the bass it self. This really helps the sound allot. Here is one of the best bass recordings articles I have ever read.
http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.n ... 5000797D4D
Hope that helps

monkeymandarin · Post by **monkeymandarin** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:43 pm

Just heard about this new plugin from Elevayta called Spaceboy. Ridiculous price of around $15. May be just what you're looking for!

http://www.elevayta.com/

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:51 pm

Spaceboy kicks ass. I'm already using it to have the two guitars not mess about with each other.

Since multiple instances still receive the same "Tracker" signal, I can't run a second set of Spaceboys for Rhythm Guitars 1 and 2.

Right now, Rhythm Guitar 2 is the tracker and Rhythm Guitar 1 is the receiver.

Since it's Guitar 1 that's fighting with the bass, I'd have to set the bass as the tracker, OR Guitar 1 and then have Guitar 2 and the bass as the receivers; however, that changes the sound a bunch again.

Great plug, though, and if it ends up being the standard Elevayta $12.95, a steal.

----

I forgot about Tracktion's native plugs since I rarely use them.

They're just that "brown stuff" above my plugins. <chuckle> Cheers for that, I'll give it a try.

----

Regarding recording the bass-- My bass amp is actually a 250-Watt mixer/PA and not a dedicated bass amp. It's hooked up downstairs and a real hassle to bring into the computer room. Consequently, I'm having to just go direct in through my UB802 mixer. Mic'ing the strings is a good idea, though. I'll give'er and see how she goes.

As for the interaction between kick and bass, the kick is still cutting through because it's not a very boomy kick. I find it sounds a bit weak, but since I'm even more clueless on how to create a thumping bass, I figured I'd cut my losses. Thanks for the links, though-- gotta check out the ducking thing, because even without a lot of competition between those two on THIS track, I'll run into the problem sooner or later.

----

Now that I've gotten some vocals recorded, the tricky part is getting those to NOT stand out so much.

Since the rest of the track is MUD still, but the vocals are clear, they really stand out and sound like crap; however, reverb makes them go too far "back" in the soundstage. But that's another issue; if I have problems with that, I'll post another thread.

All the advice and links from you lot are much appreciated, by the way!!

Greg

pacoz · Post by **pacoz** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:33 pm

I have struggled with the same problem. Here are some things I do:

Try placing the high pass filter at the end of the effects chain on your bass and guitar tracks. Some plugins can add extremely low frequency content that may not be apparent when listening to individual tracks but they will make the overall mix sound muddy when you hear them all together.

For guitars try using an 80 Hz high pass - the lowest frequency of a standard tuned guitar.

For bass also try using a 40 - 50 Hz high pass filter, so you leave room for the kick drum.

Also the 200 - 300Hz region can be the source for lots of the muddiness. Cut liberally here.

I've read some engineers like add a slight boost right at the cut frequency to keep the definition. Do this to all your tracks and it should clear things up considerably.

Lunch Money · Post by **Lunch Money** » Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:25 am

Thanks for the replies.

A new problem developed today, which I'm not expecting any further 'fix this' comments for-- the tips you've given me should help with a nigh-unhelpable situation.

As I may have mentioned, the song is being recorded as a 'gift'. It's the third time a group of us have done so, and the first two are still talked about, so we know it's more appreciated than money or other material gifts.

To get to the unhelpable bit-- tonight 2 of the guys came over to work on stuff. One a musician, the other not. I was going to give him a 'joke' job as the cowbell-player (one note on a MIDI keyboard, not even a real cowbell) and he'd also join us for our arena-rock yelling shenanigans. Somewhere along the way we decided to let him play the bass line. Did I mention he's not a musician? First time he ever held a bass. The notes weren't played with enough attack, even though he got the timing right enough times that I can 'loop' the song into completion. But the notes have even less punch than the ones *I* played.

Ah well. I'm a bit of a perfectionist, but in this case I felt the trade-off was worth it. He was thrilled to be a 'real' part of the song.

That was the last of the recording sessions-- now I'm off to mix this muck. Thanks for the advice so far, and if anyone comes up with anything else, I'd be happy to hear it!

Greg

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