Can your host do THIS?

[stefancrs]

The issue seems to be: how do you automate the wet/dry amount of a plugin when that plugin was developed *without* wet/dry controls? In particular, how to do it when used as an insert effect and not as a send effect and without using busses?

That is PRECISELY what I'm asking. I'm glad someone finally figured it out.

I'll try your suggestion with Chainer. Guess that's the closest thing to what I want. Thanks!

Hey! I was glad someone else than me understood you, it was a simple question you asked. But I want da credz ffs!!!!

It was quite disturbing reading a thread totally based on answering a question no-one asked, thanks for getting it back on track Parrot.

[LoRez]

The issue seems to be: how do you automate the wet/dry amount of a plugin when that plugin was developed *without* wet/dry controls? In particular, how to do it when used as an insert effect and not as a send effect and without using busses?

That is PRECISELY what I'm asking. I'm glad someone finally figured it out.

I'll try your suggestion with Chainer. Guess that's the closest thing to what I want. Thanks!

Huh? C'mon guys. Sonar does it just like a real console and it works FINE! Some of you are obviously missing something or not thinking clearly. Wanna adjust the wet dry? Automate that parameter. You can even assign it to a knob and move it by hand. Doesn't have a wet/dry parameter? Automate the bus or automate the aux send! It works just like every decent console I've ever used. I don't get what the problem is.

Ahh, there's a thought though--WHY do we have to stick to old traditions left over from hardware days? Isn't the whole point of software-based music making based on revolutionizing and innovating with new ideas and workflow methods? I long for the day when all the previous conventions are dropped and we enter an age of truly refreshing ideas. We're definitely headed in that direction, as many software designer are already doing it.

I do understand your point about this and it is, in general, a valid one. However, I would contend that these "left over old traditions" are not simply there for posterity. Many of these mixing techniques have been honed and perfected for over half a century by people who have done this sort of thing professionally day in and day out and have recorded many of the albums we all know and love. (hate to use car analogy but) Notice cars have advanced tremendously but they still have a wheel for steering, a gas pedal, etc. That's because it simply works.

My question is: What sort of plugin are you trying to use as an insert that doesn't have any wet/dry or balance control? I would say that if the plugin is intended to be used as an insert and has no level control then the poor implementation is on the plugin side. Maybe, as you alluded to, this doesn't bother me because, for me, things work the way I expect them to. I would suspect that most engineers would want things to work the way they expect for the most part. I guess I've never used a plugin as an insert and wished I could get more dry signal. Inserts are generally used for gates, compressors, delays etc. The only of these that I believe you would want a wet/dry control would be the delay and if you are using a delay without one then I'd suggest a more thoughtfully designed delay. If you use a reverb as an insert it should definitely have a wet/dry control, so I just can't imagine a scenario where this matters. Maybe you can give me one and then I'll understand more clearly.

[LoRez]

The issue seems to be: how do you automate the wet/dry amount of a plugin when that plugin was developed *without* wet/dry controls? In particular, how to do it when used as an insert effect and not as a send effect and without using busses?

That is PRECISELY what I'm asking. I'm glad someone finally figured it out.

I'll try your suggestion with Chainer. Guess that's the closest thing to what I want. Thanks!

Hey! I was glad someone else than me understood you, it was a simple question you asked. But I want da credz ffs!!!!

It was quite disturbing reading a thread totally based on answering a question no-one asked, thanks for getting it back on track Parrot.

BS. It was on track the whole time and plenty of people understood the question. I think the problem arose when some of us questioned the purpose for this need to begin with. If you found this thread "disturbing" then you really outta get out more I'm disturbed by homeless NAM vets missing a leg asking for food on freeway exits. I find it hard to feel disturbed by any discussion regarding mixing with plugins for music, no matter how off track it got. I just wanted to get to back basics and figure out why this "feature" was needed at all as it has never even crossed my mind in years of mixing. Maybe I, nor many others apparently, have ever come across a scenario where this was desired. This is why I asked for specifics. I'm more than happy to admit when I'm wrong or have misunderstood the premise.

[stefancrs]

If you found this thread "disturbing" then you really outta get out more

Oh, well. "Annoying" then And it's been a few slow days at work.

It just seemed to me that lots of people thought he wondered how one automates effect parameters. Maybe I'm the one that misunderstood, and people actually didn't think he wanted to know how to automate VST parameters.

Nevertheless, I find the question answered. For weird effect evolvment, use something like chainer / eXT / whatever. For some purposes crossfading (dry/wet) is not the "rising amount of effect" one wants.

BTW, you got me interested in sonar. Will check it out.

Cheers.

[LoRez]

If you found this thread "disturbing" then you really outta get out more

Oh, well. "Annoying" then And it's been a few slow days at work.

It just seemed to me that lots of people thought he wondered how one automates effect parameters. Maybe I'm the one that misunderstood, and people actually didn't think he wanted to know how to automate VST parameters.

Nevertheless, I find the question answered. For weird effect evolvment, use something like chainer / eXT / whatever. For some purposes crossfading (dry/wet) is not the "rising amount of effect" one wants.

BTW, you got me interested in sonar. Will check it out.

Cheers.

Agreed. Sorry if it seemed I jumped on you for your semantics...it's been a long few days here as well (travelling...argh) and I truly meant no offense (maybe just blowing off steam). Thanks for replying in such a kind manner Sounds like there is a workaround, however I am genuinely interested in specific scenarios where this is desired.

Have a good night all.

[tetraplan]

Ahh, there's a thought though--WHY do we have to stick to old traditions left over from hardware days?

Because the Big Sequencers first arrived in the hardware days (which are far from over, btw) and stick to that paradigm. And why not? After all, it's easier to improve on what you have than to completely re-invent your product.
Give it some time.

Isn't the whole point of software-based music making based on revolutionizing and innovating with new ideas and workflow methods?

Only in newer hosts.
By the way, I get the impression Tracktion and Podium et al. are hybrids, rather than revolutionary new ways of sequencing.
You need to look elsewhere for those: AudioMulch, Bidule, EnergyXT, Live, &c., &c.

I long for the day when all the previous conventions are dropped and we enter an age of truly refreshing ideas. We're definitely headed in that direction, as many software designer are already doing it.

Those days are already here. See above.

Groet, Erik

[spaceman]

... it seems that their chosen app doesn't automate all the VST effects parameters except by basically bouncing things around their "advanced" "powerful" "Perfectly implemented" mixing environment, which seems a little bit odd imho..

maybe it's because Sonar is a DX based environment, not VST.. and all the posts you read here are not very accurate (bounce what around? if you want to automate every VST parameter, use something else. If you'd ever used S3's automation you'd know it's really good

you've obviously never used S3 so what the hell are you talking about?.. at least spend 15 minutes in S3 before you share you're immense sequencer knowledge with the rest of us

[spaceman]

and why the f**k is this f**king thread still alive


put your f**king effect on a f**king bus and automate the f**king bus.. what the f**k is so difficult about that you f**king lazy I-don't-want-to-use-my-f**king-feeble-brain-becaue-it-hurts-me pansie f**king wankers

if you think a project gets finished by looking at it and willing it to get finished.. WAKE THE f**k UP!!!

and who f**king cares who easy it is to work in tracktion.. how about handling multi-output plugs in tracktion.. IT'S A f**king PAIN IN THE ARSE

[headquest]

... it seems that their chosen app doesn't automate all the VST effects parameters except by basically bouncing things around their "advanced" "powerful" "Perfectly implemented" mixing environment, which seems a little bit odd imho..

maybe it's because Sonar is a DX based environment, not VST.. and all the posts you read here are not very accurate (bounce what around? if you want to automate every VST parameter, use something else. If you'd ever used S3's automation you'd know it's really good

you've obviously never used S3 so what the hell are you talking about?.. at least spend 15 minutes in S3 before you share you're immense sequencer knowledge with the rest of us

Regarding my "immense sequencer knowledge", I came from Cubase SX(and its predecessors over the last 15 years or so).

For the record though, I have a music degree, studied at the Royal College of Music London, and have subsequently performed and taught as a professional musician for 2 decades.

The fact that I'm not a Sonar user doesn't give you or anyone else the right to be patronising or arrogant. In fact by doing so I think you are giving Sonar users a bad rap. It's a good job that I know and have worked with some excellent people who share your enthusiasm for the programme (but not your rudeness to others!)

I have indeed spent 15 minutes (or so!) with Sonar 3 actually - but I'll be the first to admit that I need - and would like - longer with it. A complex professional programme like Sonar needs loads of time to get to know fully.

Actually, that's my whole point! It seems good to me that newer programmes are coming along which make it easier for newcomers to start making music, and Tracktion, Live and Reason - the combination I use - are all good for both professionals like myself and newcomers too.

The question posed by this thread is: "Can your Host do this?"

To which my answer, plain and simple, is YES. Cubase could "do it" , Live can "do it", and so can Tracktion.

[jens]

and why the f**k is this f**king thread still alive


put your f**king effect on a f**king bus and automate the f**king bus.. what the f**k is so difficult about that you f**king lazy I-don't-want-to-use-my-f**king-feeble-brain-becaue-it-hurts-me pansie f**king wankers

if you think a project gets finished by looking at it and willing it to get finished.. WAKE THE f**k UP!!!

and who f**king cares who easy it is to work in tracktion.. how about handling multi-output plugs in tracktion.. IT'S A f**king PAIN IN THE ARSE

hm - not sure whose brain is switched off here

say you put a distortion plugin on a drum loop and you want the automation coming slowly in but in most of the cases of course you want a crossfade between the wet and the dry signal - howdya do this with a bus?

(I hope I don't have to explain you the difference between insert and send fx? )

[spaceman]

Regarding my "immense sequencer knowledge", I came from Cubase SX(and its predecessors over the last 15 years or so).

For the record though, I have a music degree, studied at the Royal College of Music London, and have subsequently performed and taught as a professional musician for 2 decades.

doesn't mention any experience using sonar

The fact that I'm not a Sonar user doesn't give you or anyone else the right to be patronising or arrogant.

I wasn't any more arrogant about that than you were about sonar users and their "advanced" "powerful" "Perfectly implemented" mixing environment

In fact by doing so I think you are giving Sonar users a bad rap. It's a good job that I know and have worked with some excellent people who share your enthusiasm for the programme (but not your rudeness to others!)

oooh for f**ks sake man, grow up
I haven't given sonar users anything.. this is not f**king preschool you know

I have indeed spent 15 minutes (or so!) with Sonar 3 actually - but I'll be the first to admit that I need - and would like - longer with it. A complex professional programme like Sonar needs loads of time to get to know fully.

which was my point.. you should have been less arrogant with your sarcastic sonar user remarks since, as you've just admitted, you don't have much experience with sonar.. which was the whole point of my reply

Actually, that's my whole point! It seems good to me that newer programmes are coming along which make it easier for newcomers to start making music, and Tracktion, Live and Reason - the combination I use - are all good for both professionals like myself and newcomers too.

I agree

The question posed by this thread is: "Can your Host do this?"

To which my answer, plain and simple, is YES. Cubase could "do it" , Live can "do it", and so can Tracktion.

and so can Sonar
and I can talk about the others too because I also have cubase and tacktion

[jens]

erm - I moved from sonar to Tracktion and used both programmes many hundreds of hours so maybe you believe me that I should know?

Sonar's automation is far more advanced and user-friendly than Tracktion's - Tracktion's automation is indeed so poor and difficult to use that it is a real pain in the arse - not so Sonar's automation though

- If you need more info just ask

Sure you sound like you have experience of both programmes, so I'm all ears!

Based on what you wrote, though, why did you switch from Sonar to Tracktion... sounds like you prefer Sonar?

Or did you move back when you found Tracktion's automation annoying (I don't by the way - it seems simple enough to me, but we all work in different ways, so that's no problem!!)

Or, do you now use both programmes, and if so what are the advantages, etc?

the answer to your question partly is in the fact that you're asking it

If you should answer in one or two simple sentences what is so special about Tracktion, what would your answer be?

[spaceman]

and why the f**k is this f**king thread still alive


put your f**king effect on a f**king bus and automate the f**king bus.. what the f**k is so difficult about that you f**king lazy I-don't-want-to-use-my-f**king-feeble-brain-becaue-it-hurts-me pansie f**king wankers

if you think a project gets finished by looking at it and willing it to get finished.. WAKE THE f**k UP!!!

and who f**king cares who easy it is to work in tracktion.. how about handling multi-output plugs in tracktion.. IT'S A f**king PAIN IN THE ARSE

hm - not sure whose brain is switched off here

say you put a distortion plugin on a drum loop and you want the automation coming slowly in but in most of the cases of course you want a crossfade between the wet and the dry signal - howdya do this with a bus?

(I hope I don't have to explain you the difference between insert and send fx? )

very funny

for insert

use a dx plugin
it's sonar, it's not supposed to have full vst automation

and for sends, use a bus,
that's for dx or vst

[jens]

and why the f**k is this f**king thread still alive


put your f**king effect on a f**king bus and automate the f**king bus.. what the f**k is so difficult about that you f**king lazy I-don't-want-to-use-my-f**king-feeble-brain-becaue-it-hurts-me pansie f**king wankers

if you think a project gets finished by looking at it and willing it to get finished.. WAKE THE f**k UP!!!

and who f**king cares who easy it is to work in tracktion.. how about handling multi-output plugs in tracktion.. IT'S A f**king PAIN IN THE ARSE

hm - not sure whose brain is switched off here

say you put a distortion plugin on a drum loop and you want the automation coming slowly in but in most of the cases of course you want a crossfade between the wet and the dry signal - howdya do this with a bus?

(I hope I don't have to explain you the difference between insert and send fx? )

very funny

for insert

use a dx plugin
it's sonar, it's not supposed to have full vst automation

Sonar makes no difference between dx and vst - for Sonar all vst's are in fact dx (the wrapper tells Sonar 'look mate - here's another fivehundred dx')

Thus the conclusion is:

Sonar doesn't have it for dx either

Thus the conclusion is:

Your answer was completely wrong

[spaceman]

and why the f**k is this f**king thread still alive


put your f**king effect on a f**king bus and automate the f**king bus.. what the f**k is so difficult about that you f**king lazy I-don't-want-to-use-my-f**king-feeble-brain-becaue-it-hurts-me pansie f**king wankers

if you think a project gets finished by looking at it and willing it to get finished.. WAKE THE f**k UP!!!

and who f**king cares who easy it is to work in tracktion.. how about handling multi-output plugs in tracktion.. IT'S A f**king PAIN IN THE ARSE

hm - not sure whose brain is switched off here

say you put a distortion plugin on a drum loop and you want the automation coming slowly in but in most of the cases of course you want a crossfade between the wet and the dry signal - howdya do this with a bus?

(I hope I don't have to explain you the difference between insert and send fx? )

very funny

for insert

use a dx plugin
it's sonar, it's not supposed to have full vst automation

Sonar makes no difference between dx and vst - for Sonar all vst's are in fact dx (the wrapper tells Sonar 'look mate - here's another fivehundred dx')

Thus the conclusion is:

Sonar doesn't have it for dx either

Thus the conclusion is:

Your answer was completely wrong

I was talking about the native sonar plugs
wrapped VSTs are DXs of course in Sonar, but the VSTs parameters don't get the same treatment as the dx plugs (native ones again)