Wavetable Synthesis

[zerocrossing]

BTW killer feature would be to have an import feature that analyzes a longer sample in certain moving window frames and creates banks for harmonics modulators from it.

THIS.

Right, I think what we're asking for isn't really wavetable synthesis, but what wavetable synthesis attempts to produce. I also think that Mpowersynth is already kind of doing it... I think it just needs possibily an interface that makes it easier to achieve. I think a synth that already does this perfectly is Zebra 2.

[jmg8]

Yes, I agree. Technically it's not wavetable synthesis (which is kind of limited and boring) but rather using the Fourier harmonic engine to morph between two waveforms. This can be done in a number of ways that already exist (in a way) in MPS.

1. An option in osc2/3 (fm section) to morph between osc 1 and 2/3.

2. A way to have more control over imported samples and the position of the single cycle waveform.

3. If a custom waveform is imported, NOT to have the custom wave and step sequencer morphs disabled.

All of the above ideas/suggestions use technology that already exist in MPS. Like in the above suggested idea of using the A/B/C/D morph, but make it modualatable.

Your correct, it's not wavetable, it's just more options to change wave shape using the frequency volume/phase table (Fourier)

Sometimes when sound designing and making a synth sound from scratch, it's nice to start from some exciting/specific waveforms. In MPS we can use one of the default waveforms and then have a HUGE amount of control over it's shape (custom morph, step sequencer morph, etc) but those starting wave shapes are limited. As soon as we try and import our own wave shapes (moog saw for example) all those options are gone! No morphing/changing of waveshape is there, it's disabled.

[Chandlerhimself]

I agree with the above. I'd like to see an interface hidden inside the harmonics section that lets your import 1 wave and then let you put it into slots by scanning through it and selecting the right sample. It should also have a way to import single cycles and do the same thing. I think this would really open up the possibilities of MPS and allow it to more easily do common popular sounds.

[Grizzellda]

I think this would really open up the possibilities of MPS and allow it to more easily do common popular sounds.

Can't MPS do popular sounds? I think it could likely do a few, and you could get Spire if you really wanted that!

MPS is certainly powerful & versatile, but it really helps to get those modulators involved, and that costs CPU, which is one reason I asked Vojtech about his computers.

but the companies developing "pro audio interfaces" are generally extreme amateurs,

Come on! Don't tell me you ain't using some kind of good audio interface!

[MeldaProduction]

Well, folks, you can only simulate it, but I repeat, this is NOT a wavetable synth. Period. As I explained many times, I was very disappointed from Serum making me thing that wavetable synthesis is just too medieval. You have plenty of other options in MPowerSynth, just not this one, because well I like to focus on the future . In MYYY there shall be a wavetable synthesizer, to make it "full", but it just won't be added into MPS.

but the companies developing "pro audio interfaces" are generally extreme amateurs,

Come on! Don't tell me you ain't using some kind of good audio interface!

Yeah, well, I'm using M-Audio ProFire 2626 stuff, these guys are really...well... bad... when it comes to drivers, but still better than my Roland OctaCapture, which was just almost unusable... I'm not sure what these companies are doing. My M-Audio is quite old actually, so I'd expect some problems, but first of all, they should update the drivers, right? And OctaCapture is pretty new and the compatibility issues... argh....

[jmg8]

We are not talking about wavetable anymore. What are your thoughts on this:

1. An option in osc2/3 (fm section) to morph between osc 1 and 2/3.

2. A way to have more control over imported samples and the position of the single cycle waveform.

3. If a custom waveform is imported, NOT to have the custom wave and step sequencer morphs disabled.


Sometimes when sound designing and making a synth sound from scratch, it's nice to start from some exciting/specific waveforms. In MPS we can use one of the default waveforms and then have a HUGE amount of control over it's shape (custom morph, step sequencer morph, etc) but those starting wave shapes are limited. As soon as we try and import our own wave shapes (moog saw for example) all those options are gone! No morphing/changing of waveshape is there, it's disabled.[/quote]

[chk071]

Well, folks, you can only simulate it, but I repeat, this is NOT a wavetable synth. Period. As I explained many times, I was very disappointed from Serum making me thing that wavetable synthesis is just too medieval. You have plenty of other options in MPowerSynth, just not this one, because well I like to focus on the future .

I don't know about MPowerSynth but i always thought that waveshaping synthesis like Z3TA or Helix do is the way to go, as it doesn't give you pre-made waves or wavetables, but you can change the waveform in real time, and can do very interesting sounds with it, and you can basically create any sound imaginable more or less. The downside being that with wavetables, you can pre-define the waves you morph through, which may give you a bit more control over the sound, while in waveshaping, it's all a bit random. But there might be ways, like snapshots of several waves you created, and the ability to morph through these waves, which could make it less random. I really wonder why there's so few synths doing waveshaping, and why it hasn't evolved a bit after what Z3TA offered.

[MeldaProduction]

jmg8:

1. What do you mean by morphing??? There are already several combination modes...

2. Sorry, no. You are trying to simulate the damn wavetables, I can see , but that's not really a goal here and I don't want to make this unnecesarily complex. With this, you could then name a gazillion features, like in the wavetable synthesis... You'll have to wait for MYYY for that . I generally want to avoid messing with samples, right now it's only an utility feature. It would need quite some analysis and resources, which would be enough for a 3rd mode, and there you have wavetables . So right now I'm against... I'll think about it though.

3. I don't follow this one reallo

chk071:

Waveshaping actually would be quite a solution - you'd render a saw using the oscillator and then waveshape it to get the desired shape. The question is if it makes things any easier (I actually think it probably wouldn't but it could be a handy tool, in MYYY ). There are some additional problems, such as the generator itself - z3ta and helix have horrible oscillators compared to MPS and there's a reason for it. You can never really do it that well if you use things like waveshaping.

[zerocrossing]

jmg8:

1. What do you mean by morphing??? There are already several combination modes...

Maybe we're just not getting it? Let's just stop saying "wavetable." Wavetables are actually a crude way of simulating what we're asking for. (though, like Game of Thrones, I dig a good medieval synthesis method. "WALDORF IS COMING!" )

What I would like is if each osc, when it's in spectral mode, had an 'a' state and a 'b' state and the ability to modulate between the two. I tried to simulate this with the patch morphing... but it was super broken. Maybe it's been fixed? I haven't tried it since the latest build.

[MeldaProduction]

Actually I'd strongly recommend NOT to use patch morphing, and instead use multiparameters for it! You can map first 32 (?? maybe more ?? don't remember ) harmonics to a multiparameter, set it to banks mode and then "teach" it any number of states. ABCD morphing is very nonefficient.

[jmg8]

By morph I mean to change from one wave shape to another, like with the custom shape/step sequencer controls. MPowerSynth does this well, but only when starting with one of the standard wave shapes. When I import/load a sample/wave shape, this feature is the disabled.

If what I've just read above is what i think it is then AMAZING! exactly what I was trying to do. Let me get this right......
Map first 32 harmonics to a multiparameter then use banks mode with interpolate on. So could I load my own wave shapes and "teach" them on the bank, then again with a different shape and then continue until I have (let's just say) 8 wave shapes. Then I can use the multiparameter to morph/change smoothly between them?! I can't wait to play with this idea tomorrow!
I will probably work it out tomorrow but I'll ask anyway. How do you "teach" the current wave shape (32 harmonic levels) to the bank?

[MeldaProduction]

Yes, that's it exactly!

To "teach" it, set the number of banks and then you have 2 options:

A) Edit the values directly in the multiparameter window. Well, that's possible, but you want here the results until you touch the multiparameter, so it's not very convenient.

B) Just edit the sound the way you want and then press the "Save" button (2nd from the top) for the particular bank and it will copy the values you have edited to the bank .

For the record, it may not seem obvious, but morphing between 2 waveshapes is actually what the default "Mix" mode does. Just use ratio. Morphing between waveshapes is indeed just a simple dry/wet .

[jmg8]

Ok, great I will try tomorrow, thanks!

I don't understand your last comment though. I thought that "mix" was a simple crossfade. Where when the control is halfway, you can hear both waveforms.
When changing waveshape with the harmonic engine, it interpolates using 32 independent harmonic levels allowing the wave to change shape. This sounds very different and not like two sounds playing at once but like one sound "morphing" changing shape.

[MeldaProduction]

Well, the levels of the harmonics in the harmonic editors are not linear (if I remember correctly), so there the morphing would really be different, but that's a special case.

Now in normal case, let's say you have a wavetable synthesizer morphing between 2 waveshapes. In that case the morphing is the exact same operation as dry/wet (or crossfade if you'd like, though it's not exactly a good term for it). Without any mathematics, blending between 2 signals using just summing is the same as blending between any frequency inside them. I know it may look a little unnatural, but that's the maths... Thanks god for that!

[jmg8]

Thanks Vojtech.

Don't let the haters get you down. Although a few get upset with you, most of us really appreciate your support and activity on these forums. Your on here almost everyday, that's more than can be said for most devs.

Keep up the good work mate!