Toms Midi Mangler 1.1 - Probabilistic Reaktor/Falcon Midi Ensemble (not only) for BWS... :-)

[ThomasHelzle]

Sorry about the Reaktor 6 requirement, but this version finally solves some of my long standing issues with this software that so far kept me away from digging deeper into it... Now it's much more fun GUIwise.

Cheers,

Tom

[Tearing Riots]

No complaint here, the user library will probably make we switch earlier.

Or if v6 solves this: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 9&t=438934

[ThomasHelzle]

Hm - no, still the case, although I'm unsure if this is a Reaktor or Bitwig Problem.
If this same setup works in other DAWs I would guess it's a BWS problem?

What does the makro do internally that took so much CPU?

But overall, Reaktor is not really that hot for Midi. Quite a pain actually. Hopefully Colin from Loomer one day finally releases his !Epoch which is supposed to become a kind of Reaktor for Midi from what he showed so far. Sadly it's several years overdue...

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

Hm - no, still the case, although I'm unsure if this is a Reaktor or Bitwig Problem.
If this same setup works in other DAWs I would guess it's a BWS problem?

What does the makro do internally that took so much CPU?

But overall, Reaktor is not really that hot for Midi. Quite a pain actually. Hopefully Colin from Loomer one day finally releases his !Epoch which is supposed to become a kind of Reaktor for Midi from what he showed so far. Sadly it's several years overdue...

Cheers,

Tom

I'd be interested in some sort of Reaktor-like Midi thing that was easy to use and low on resources. Of course, at some point the full modular access to Bitwig will be released.

I have no plan to upgrade my Reaktor 5 to the new 6. I almost never use 5 as it is. I find it just clumsy enough that I look elsewhere for my what I want. I upgraded to Komplete specifically to get Reaktor and Monark. I wish Monark were a regular vst.

[Tearing Riots]

Hm - no, still the case, although I'm unsure if this is a Reaktor or Bitwig Problem.
If this same setup works in other DAWs I would guess it's a BWS problem?

Thanks for taking a look.
It works in reaper, guess i have to bug support.

Speaking of Cockos, ReaJS seems to handle midi stuff well. Haven´t looked into scripting for that yet though.

[ThomasHelzle]

I'd be interested in some sort of Reaktor-like Midi thing that was easy to use and low on resources.

Yeah, me too. Even though I learned a lot about Reaktor Core in the last days and somehow like it, the whole Midi Note handling is something I'd rather let the application do - makes not much sense to go back to adam and eve for each ensemble.
This also explains why there are almost no Midi-processing plugins for Reaktor (that I could find) - lot's of sequencers and generative things but almost nothing for working on notes that go through.

NI could open up a whole new area if they would establish some good working basics in their library for such tools.

Well, Colin recently said once more that he is in the finishing stages for !Epoch, so maybe we will live to see it.
In the beginning I thought it would be exactly what I was looking for (like you say, a lightweight Reaktor for Midi), in the meantime it grew quite a lot, loads VSTs and sounds more and more like a kind of Midi DAW.
We will have to see how it all works out, how the GUI and the nodes are laid out and how the whole thing comes together. I also got the impression that it will not be cheap (he being from Britain doesn't help with that).
What's cool is, that he usually offers OSX, PC and Linux plugins, so it could be a great companion for Bitwig.

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

Well, Colin recently said once more that he is in the finishing stages for !Epoch, so maybe we will live to see it.
In the beginning I thought it would be exactly what I was looking for (like you say, a lightweight Reaktor for Midi), in the meantime it grew quite a lot, loads VSTs and sounds more and more like a kind of Midi DAW.
We will have to see how it all works out, how the GUI and the nodes are laid out and how the whole thing comes together. I also got the impression that it will not be cheap (he being from Britain doesn't help with that).
What's cool is, that he usually offers OSX, PC and Linux plugins, so it could be a great companion for Bitwig.

Cheers,

Tom

It already sounds too big and complicated for me... What do you think about Hollyhock?

[ThomasHelzle]

Well, Colin recently said once more that he is in the finishing stages for !Epoch, so maybe we will live to see it.
In the beginning I thought it would be exactly what I was looking for (like you say, a lightweight Reaktor for Midi), in the meantime it grew quite a lot, loads VSTs and sounds more and more like a kind of Midi DAW.
We will have to see how it all works out, how the GUI and the nodes are laid out and how the whole thing comes together. I also got the impression that it will not be cheap (he being from Britain doesn't help with that).
What's cool is, that he usually offers OSX, PC and Linux plugins, so it could be a great companion for Bitwig.

Cheers,

Tom

It already sounds too big and complicated for me... What do you think about Hollyhock?

I really like Usine, it's quite unique, but the current version isn't available as VST.
Since it is a full Live-oriented DAW without a "real" timeline, it doesn't fit me as well as Bitwig does with it's very versatile approach. I got the two synced via OSC/LoopMidi, but somehow the combination is not as slick as it could be. And when you go into the Midi part, you very quickly are in scripting land.

That's why I still have my hope up for !Epoch, since it is the first (AFAIK) really dedicated Midi modular that goes all the way from simple down to very nerdy, has scripting and can handle tons of sequencers etc. Colin has it highly optimized from what he writes on his epic thread, so maybe it will not be too heavy for the occasional use. And his voice handling sounds quite solid...

Depends really on what you want to do in the end - what is your main interest?

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

I really like Usine, it's quite unique, but the current version isn't available as VST.
Since it is a full Live-oriented DAW without a "real" timeline, it doesn't fit me as well as Bitwig does with it's very versatile approach. I got the two synced via OSC/LoopMidi, but somehow the combination is not as slick as it could be. And when you go into the Midi part, you very quickly are in scripting land.

That's why I still have my hope up for !Epoch, since it is the first (AFAIK) really dedicated Midi modular that goes all the way from simple down to very nerdy, has scripting and can handle tons of sequencers etc. Colin has it highly optimized from what he writes on his epic thread, so maybe it will not be too heavy for the occasional use. And his voice handling sounds quite solid...

Depends really on what you want to do in the end - what is your main interest?

Cheers,

Tom

My main interest is in flexibility of filtering midi data.

For example, in Live, there is sometimes a task I want to do that the midi devices don't cover. I would say my needs are generally what I would call simple, but simple isn't always so simple

Sometimes the use of multiple midi devices can accomplish a task, but sometimes not... or sometimes it gets almost there, but not quite. I'd like a simple modular midi environment where I can construct midi devices quickly. Midi is such simple data that it should be able to be really cpu efficient.

(btw, I purchased Bitwig Studio and Logic Pro and have switched from Live.)

[ThomasHelzle]

My main interest is in flexibility of filtering midi data.

For example, in Live, there is sometimes a task I want to do that the midi devices don't cover. I would say my needs are generally what I would call simple, but simple isn't always so simple

Sometimes the use of multiple midi devices can accomplish a task, but sometimes not... or sometimes it gets almost there, but not quite. I'd like a simple modular midi environment where I can construct midi devices quickly. Midi is such simple data that it should be able to be really cpu efficient.

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. Midi should be way more simple to deal with. And !Epoch promises that... So in the end I may take the overhead if it's as good as it sounds so far.

On PC there are tons of Midi VSTs but still I often also can't get where I want. That's what made me build this tool in the first place. In theory it should be a piece of cake and doable in 5 minutes, not several very long days.
I guess my next tool would go much faster, so Reaktor isn't the worst place to be and many situations may not need complicated voice handling. But yeah, it's obviously not made for Midi...

I find it totally weird that there are no really good versatile Midi tools around that cover more than either very basic things a la PizMidi or standard stuff like arpeggios, sequences etc.
Well, let's keep our fingers crossed for !Epoch...

(btw, I purchased Bitwig Studio and Logic Pro and have switched from Live.)

Hallelujah and congratulations!
Awesome.
I hope things will work smooth for you and that this combo keeps you inspired!

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

My main interest is in flexibility of filtering midi data.

For example, in Live, there is sometimes a task I want to do that the midi devices don't cover. I would say my needs are generally what I would call simple, but simple isn't always so simple

Sometimes the use of multiple midi devices can accomplish a task, but sometimes not... or sometimes it gets almost there, but not quite. I'd like a simple modular midi environment where I can construct midi devices quickly. Midi is such simple data that it should be able to be really cpu efficient.

Yeah, I think I know what you mean. Midi should be way more simple to deal with. And !Epoch promises that... So in the end I may take the overhead if it's as good as it sounds so far.

On PC there are tons of Midi VSTs but still I often also can't get where I want. That's what made me build this tool in the first place. In theory it should be a piece of cake and doable in 5 minutes, not several very long days.
I guess my next tool would go much faster, so Reaktor isn't the worst place to be and many situations may not need complicated voice handling. But yeah, it's obviously not made for Midi...

I find it totally weird that there are no really good versatile Midi tools around that cover more than either very basic things a la PizMidi or standard stuff like arpeggios, sequences etc.
Well, let's keep our fingers crossed for !Epoch...

Yeah, individual midi vst's inevitably have some limitation that gets in the way in the specific use-case. Like maybe with a specific vst patch I'm playing, I want velocity left alone, except in the 80-100 range I want it to be exactly 87 because there is a particular tone that I like right there.

I don't want to collect many dozens of individual vst's that do specific but hardwired tasks.

I also find it strange that a good flexible midi environment is not available. Midi data is so simple and easily manipulated compared to making a good reverb, or timestretch and so on.

[pdxindy]

(btw, I purchased Bitwig Studio and Logic Pro and have switched from Live.)

Hallelujah and congratulations!
Awesome.
I hope things will work smooth for you and that this combo keeps you inspired!

Cheers,

Tom

Bitwig and Logic can both handle the note per midi channel stuff and who knows when if ever Live will... that is what pushed me finally.

Logic can handle Time Signature automation... so that covers that lack in Bitwig.

I will miss how amazing Live's racks are... how fast and easy it is to do velocity and key splits on layers... including blended fades which might not even be possible in Bitwig.

Still, I consider the note per midi channel stuff to be a game changer... I'm gonna get both the Linnstrument and the new Roli Rise... see which I like better. It is too hard to decide from a distance.

[ThomasHelzle]

Bitwig and Logic can both handle the note per midi channel stuff and who knows when if ever Live will... that is what pushed me finally.

Logic can handle Time Signature automation... so that covers that lack in Bitwig.

I will miss how amazing Live's racks are... how fast and easy it is to do velocity and key splits on layers... including blended fades which might not even be possible in Bitwig.

Still, I consider the note per midi channel stuff to be a game changer... I'm gonna get both the Linnstrument and the new Roli Rise... see which I like better. It is too hard to decide from a distance.

Yeah, the Live racks are really nifty. Although I think one can achieve most of it via note devices and Instruments layers, it's not as elegant. But with a good setup it should be pretty painless, like having macros in the main device for the splitpoint(s) etc.
I hardly ever do such splits so it does not bother me in reality but I can see how that can be missed.

But on the other hand you get rid of the very stiff device order in Live which drove me nuts. In BWS I can put as many midi VSTs in a row as I like, have audio FX in front of them if I want and mix and match instruments etc.
Note and Audio receivers are much more to my liking than the track-based Live routing, since I can have audio receivers everywhere in the chain and receive very finegrained from every point in the arrangement. Heck, you can even receive audio from earlier in the same chain deep down in some layer...
Magic.

I personally gained much more than I lost. I don't think I would be able to enjoy Live anymore after working with Bitwig for one and a half years.

I look forward to hear about your experiences!

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

Yeah, the Live racks are really nifty. Although I think one can achieve most of it via note devices and Instruments layers, it's not as elegant. But with a good setup it should be pretty painless, like having macros in the main device for the splitpoint(s) etc.
I hardly ever do such splits so it does not bother me in reality but I can see how that can be missed.

What sets the Live racks apart is the fades. I can velocity split 2 synth patches and it is not just a hard point that they switch but they can also be blended together with fade in/out points. And it is so fast to set up it feels like cheating! heh...

I don't think Bitwig can even do that at all. Is there a device to draw curves(even linear ones) across velocity or key ranges?

But on the other hand you get rid of the very stiff device order in Live which drove me nuts. In BWS I can put as many midi VSTs in a row as I like, have audio FX in front of them if I want and mix and match instruments etc.
Note and Audio receivers are much more to my liking than the track-based Live routing, since I can have audio receivers everywhere in the chain and receive very finegrained from every point in the arrangement. Heck, you can even receive audio from earlier in the same chain deep down in some layer...
Magic.

I personally gained much more than I lost. I don't think I would be able to enjoy Live anymore after working with Bitwig for one and a half years.

I look forward to hear about your experiences!

Cheers,

Tom

I appreciate the note and audio receivers. Bitwig is more capable... though Live has generally been good enough for me that way. My needs are generally pretty modest... except I want to be able to use the new controllers

I'm gonna like Bitwig just fine. I've used the demo plenty so it is already familiar. Now that I've been using the new 1.2 browser, I think it is excellent. It means I can just keep the regular browser hidden which means more screen space and less visual clutter. I also like the better integration of Session (Launcher) and Arrange in Bitwig... plus some other stuff too obviously. I wish Bitwig exported MP3.

[ThomasHelzle]

I just did a quick test with a Note MOD, modulated the "Velocity 2" of a MidiVelocityScale VST (PizMidi) with the "Key"-Modulation from the Note Mod and got a range of keys over which the velocity went from 127 to 0. You could put that in front of two instruments in an instrument layer and inverse the effect in one of them...
So it's definitely doable, even if not as elegant as in Live.
Would also make a good FR to have a fading-range in the factory note filter device.

Yeah, same here with the browser. Nick did some great work there. I look forward to how it further develops.

Hm - I never export to MP3, I usually go first WAV and in the end convert to FLAC, since it supports multichannel surround - which is pretty much everything I do these days...
Send it as a FR to support if you haven't. The libraries should be already in there since BWS can open MP3 and I read this request quite often.

Cheers,

Tom