Is Hive capable of more sounds than Sylenth?

[mhog]

It would have been easy to recreate the sound of Sylenth 100%.

[Urs]

Sure. It isn't rocket science.

[mhog]

As often happens in synths' no rocket science, some products and their sounds that are considered "just lame" and/or very simple to recreate, become "a classic", thanks to some music genres. See: Moog farting "brass"; TR-909 ultrafake kick; JP-8000 idiotic supersaw; D-50 real plastic patches, etc. Conclusion: Sylenth1 is no rocket science: it's a classic, just deal with it. It's not the synth: it's the myth, I guess.

[Urs]

it's a classic, just deal with it.

We did

[pdxindy]

Have to agree. Never been keen on it. Maybe it's me, and I'm not intuitively getting the best out of it, but every time I tried it I was left feeling...well, nothing.

To be honest that's why I've not gotten into Hive - because of the perceived "Sylenth replacement/alternative" status that gets bandied around. Ought to give it a chance really,but I'm trying not to buy things that I don't need atm, and I'm not convinved I need it right now. Maybe when I have more disposable money eating away at my pockets...

For certain sounds, Sylenth has a lovely quality. For other stuff, I find the sound quality meh (low end). I also find Sylenth just too limited sound design wise.

[mhog]

Oh, by the way: for me Sylenth1 and Hive sound exactly the same. Hive is more complete, though: it has more features and probably better efx. I bought Hive as a Sylenth1 replacement, because of the 64bit AU issue. I did not need the extra features, just that "sound". In this perspective Hive is the only Sylenth1 killer IMO.

[chk071]

Sure. It isn't rocket science.

But to get it to sound exactly the same? Like, you wouldn't be able to hear the slightest difference, in every usage aspect? Why are all the Virus orientated synths not there yet? I mean, not that i wouldn't understand that trying to sound exactly like it would not only be boring, but a bit pointless, as you would like to keep your own vision, and maybe create your own company profile.

Good example in this thread: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 9#p6248109

Regardless of how close the sound is, would it be possible to get the waveform to completely "null" when trying to emulate the sound? Or is it always rather an approximation, and you won't be able to achieve the sound 1:1?

[Urs]

Regardless of how close the sound is, would it be possible to get the waveform to completely null when trying to emulate the sound? Or is it always rather an approximation, and you won't be able to achieve the sound 1:1?

I wouldn't want to achieve full nulling. That would be over the top and nearly impossible for a synth. It's even impossible for the very same code with two different compilers, e.g. due to rounding errors in a different order of execution.

It is however pretty easy to exactly determine how oscillators work, what distortion, model and levels the filter uses etc. From then on it's just matching the knob/slider positions. Which is tedious and IMHO a waste of time.

As I said, the main difference between Hive in "Normal" mode and Sylenth is

- Hive uses 3 wavetables per octave, Sylenth uses 2

- Hive animates the supersaw detune because this was preferred over static linear detune in blind tests, Sylenth uses static linear detune

- Hive uses a resonance gain compensated 4-pole ladder filter, Sylenth uses the same but it isn't gain compensated (bass level goes down when resonance is turned up)

- Hive injects low level noise for "3D" sound and self-oscillation, Sylenth filters need to be excited for self oscillation

- Hive evaluates a delayless feedback loop for resonance, Sylenth doesn't

- Hive's filters are oversampled 2x, Sylenth's are not IIRC

- Both use a simple waveshaper in the forward path IIRC

- Envelopes are same down to less than 1/10th of a db

So well, I don't think it would be much work to get from B to A. It would just, technically and by my books, be a downgrade.

[chk071]

Regardless of how close the sound is, would it be possible to get the waveform to completely null when trying to emulate the sound? Or is it always rather an approximation, and you won't be able to achieve the sound 1:1?

I wouldn't want to achieve full nulling. That would be over the top and nearly impossible for a synth. It's even impossible for the very same code with two different compilers, e.g. due to rounding errors in a different order of execution.

It is however pretty easy to exactly determine how oscillators work, what distortion, model and levels the filter uses etc. From then on it's just matching the knob/slider positions. Which is tedious and IMHO a waste of time.

Yeah, that was also my point, and i understand that noone will do it to that degree then. But the thing is, whether or not it is "piece of cake" to emulate something is rather in the perception of the one doing the emulation then. If i want it to the degree that it "almost nulls", and the next simply wants it to the degree that it's, well, pretty close, then there's a big difference between it. I read here and elsewhere that Hive and Sylenth sound the same for some people. Well, they don't for you and me, but others might not sense, or care about, a difference. And that's probably also the reason why some think that emulations are close enough, and others never will be satisfied (if that's reasonable or not is another question...).

[deastman]

I have never even demoed Sylenth, and it has simply never appealed to me. I bought Hive on the strength of U-he's other releases and the fact that it is a lightweight but well-specified synth for general use. I also think it is a nice sonic complement to Diva, Bazille, and Zebra, all of which I also own. I really like the GUI too. I don't make contemporary EDM/Trance music, so I really don't care how either one performs for getting "that" sound.

[Robmobius]

I bought Hive on the strength of U-he's other releases and the fact that it is a lightweight but well-specified synth for general use. I also think it is a nice sonic complement to Diva, Bazille, and Zebra, all of which I also own. I really like the GUI too. I don't make contemporary EDM/Trance music, so I really don't care how either one performs for getting "that" sound.

This for me as well... HIVE has the whole package and can cover all of that modern VA sounds - In a very easy to use GUI.

I'm not into 'trance' either, but HIVE can do it as well as Sylenth, and probably better. I also think that HIVE's FX are better also.

Both great synths, but HIVE takes the lead at the moment imo. I guess we will have to see what L.Digital comes up with for Sylenth in the future. I'm sure it will be good.

I've forgotten the link for that youtube vid. Where that chap compares HIVE to Sylenth, as best he can (they each have their own nuances of course). Over the in depth comparisons he did I was leaning towards HIVE's sound, but that's just me.

Worth a look in case anyone has missed it.

EDIT: Found it :

[Elektronisch]

FM and sync will very likely happen in an update later on, Urs mentioned.

That would be interesting. Now that Sylenth finally became Mac x64 compatible, Hive needs something extra to compete with it.

Nah, come on, we have enough "extra" to compete:

- one page GUI as opposed to two pages
- control linking preserves relative parameter values
- flexible filter routing
- interchangeable effects with more modes
- many, many more destinations for the mod matrix
- less effort to create sound design due to Osc/SubOsc paradigm (no real feature penalty)
- built-in PWM
- AAX support, Linux beta
- Velocity scaled envelopes
- flexible envelope and LFO trigger modes
- independent arpeggiator and sequencer
- recordable sequencer with extra editing modes
- extra modulation lane for sequencer
- modulation mode for sequencer including Trance Gate effect
- oversampled filters
- 3 different engines with distinct character

Did I forget something? Nevermind, I think Hive can compete. Easily.

Hive doesnt have a wooden skin and martin garix + avicci on board showing off what synth they are using it to create a hit track

[do_androids_dream]

Sylenth surely has a bit of that over-the-top hype surrounding it, which is basically based on nothing more but endorsement from top EDM artists, and word of mouth advertising, but hypes like that don't appear out of nowhere.

That's just it - Sylenth was never really hyped. Its sound alone is what made it find its way into everyone's plugin folder. It's a near perfect compromise between sound, ease of use and cpu usage. An upgraded synth1 really (I know there was an association with synth1 iirc).

[kyodeejay]

While Hive is much better and it has more interesting features and UI, I think the basic raw oscillators of Sylenth1 are better. It has that sound. Just A/B them, using different unison detunes and Sylenth1 fine tune. It sounds more real, however Hive's oscillator sound like anothers VSTs, and it does weird artifacts (it seems I can hear one of the saws more than the others, in a super saw sound).

Also Sylenth wins in CPU usage.

[Elektronisch]

Sylenth surely has a bit of that over-the-top hype surrounding it, which is basically based on nothing more but endorsement from top EDM artists, and word of mouth advertising, but hypes like that don't appear out of nowhere.

That's just it - Sylenth was never really hyped. Its sound alone is what made it find its way into everyone's plugin folder. It's a near perfect compromise between sound, ease of use and cpu usage. An upgraded synth1 really (I know there was an association with synth1 iirc).

And yes and no...I will go ahead, im talking about EDM scene aka electronic dance music scene (thats where sylenth1 has biggest success) by not jumping instantly "oh we had absynth bla bla bla.

You see Sylenth1 was released in 2007. What we had back then that could really match hardware VAs? basicly nothing...Z3ta+, Albino, Predator were considered one of best for dance music along with Nexus (wich is not even a synth). And sylenth1 comparing to my mentioned synths by the quality of sound really kinda blew them out of the water. I remember myself first when i heard sylenth1 it really sounded amazing, unfortunetly it was quite demanding at the time, my Pentium 4 at 3ghz really was stressing on few instances with complex patches.

Sylenth1 was one of the first (actually first in this case) easy to use intuitive and top notch quality virtual analog emulation on a computer. It just says it all. Its a classic. Kinda like Roland JP got famous with its supersaw & trance music hype.