Hello!
Whats the difference between Diva and Hive supersaw sound? I know Diva is based on JP...but Hives one is based on...? What divides them apart, sound wise?
Thx
Hive-Diva supersaw
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- Banned
- 3889 posts since 3 Feb, 2010
its called Ursaw a short for Übersaw 
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- KVRAF
- 2747 posts since 13 Feb, 2012 from Amsterdam
To give you an actual answer, the supersaw in JP8000 is a single voice with 7 saws stacked in it. In Hive the osc itself is multiplied and can therefore have different waveforms and be spread across the stereo field. So it's wider and more versatile, but probably different in character.
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- KVRist
- 140 posts since 27 Jul, 2015
AFAIK, the most important factor (after the number of stacked saw) determining the sound of a particular supersaw is the way detuning is spread between the individual saws.
A linear spread (i.e. detuning is simply increased by a fixed amount between each saw) sounds a bit harsh. Exponential spread (detuning becomes greater and greater the further you are from the central saw) sounds more natural. The infamous JP-80x0 supersaw used something in between (parabolic).
There is an extensive paper (along with a recreation in Reaktor of the JP-80x0 supersaw) downloadable here:
http://alex-shore.com/jp-4c
I tried to figure out a few days ago which detuning curve is used in Zebra (using Serum as a reference, since you can select different spreads), and I think it's either exponential, or close. It was just a quick test by ear, so I may be wrong. As for Diva, I suspect the curve would be very close to the one used in JP-80x0. I think in Hive there is different curves depending on the engine.
A linear spread (i.e. detuning is simply increased by a fixed amount between each saw) sounds a bit harsh. Exponential spread (detuning becomes greater and greater the further you are from the central saw) sounds more natural. The infamous JP-80x0 supersaw used something in between (parabolic).
There is an extensive paper (along with a recreation in Reaktor of the JP-80x0 supersaw) downloadable here:
http://alex-shore.com/jp-4c
I tried to figure out a few days ago which detuning curve is used in Zebra (using Serum as a reference, since you can select different spreads), and I think it's either exponential, or close. It was just a quick test by ear, so I may be wrong. As for Diva, I suspect the curve would be very close to the one used in JP-80x0. I think in Hive there is different curves depending on the engine.
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- KVRist
- 40 posts since 15 Nov, 2014
Hive's manual describes the three modes as such:drakmaniso wrote:I think in Hive there is different curves depending on the engine.
u-he wrote:NORMAL - exponential oscillator detune, s-shaped envelope attack, short decay, oversampled
self-oscillating ‘ladder’ filter model with non-linear resonance.
DIRTY - Evenly-spaced oscillator detune, exponential envelope stages, oversampled
self-oscillating ‘diode ring’ filter. Highly non-linear and unpredictable!
CLEAN - Slightly wider oscillator detune, linear envelope attack, exponential decay
and release, linear (non-distorting) ‘state variable’ filters, no oversampling.
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- KVRAF
- 3229 posts since 10 Nov, 2013 from Germany
In "Normal" mode Hive is using a very unusual non-symmetrical detuning law.
What was the intention for this?
What was the intention for this?
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- u-he
- 30208 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Yep, that's intentional. There's a whole set of algorithms behind each tuning law in Hive, and the stereo spread has an extra influence on how this works (the pitch of some laws is rather obvious, but then their spatial distribution is not!). This is based on listening tests with a pre-alpha of Hive's oscillators, and then we kept the best sounding detune laws.
The unusual "non-symmetric" detuning law separates the unison oscillators in two groups which are then detuned by frequency in addition to pitch, and then "regrouped for optimum non-repetitive beating". This one was my favourite as to me it sounded particularly wide in the stereo image.
The unusual "non-symmetric" detuning law separates the unison oscillators in two groups which are then detuned by frequency in addition to pitch, and then "regrouped for optimum non-repetitive beating". This one was my favourite as to me it sounded particularly wide in the stereo image.
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- KVRAF
- 3408 posts since 26 Mar, 2002 from london
What's the logic of having 3 modes in which detuning/supersaw style is married to a specific filter and envelope type? I mean, in dirty mode for example, it seems to me that the filter can be described such, and perhaps the envelopes, but is this unison mode 'dirty''? I'm trying the demo and still looking for controls to mix and match filter, envelope and unison modes.
Every day takes figuring out all over again how to f#ckin’ live.
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- u-he
- 30208 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
A mix-and-match engine is something we definitely want to do.
The idea pdf having those 3 engines we have right now is to combine things that we thought sounded good together, and make obvious distinguished character available instantly. Otherwise we'd have the interface cluttered with selectors of possibly homeopathic quality, where people would possibly spend quite some time trying to point out differences.
So now we've got the idea of possibly adding another distinct engine, and then one mode where people can select any combination of the four. But the filters for instance would only ever be changed together, as would the oscillators, envelopes and whatever else there is to it (I can't remember every detail, it was 8+ years ago when I wrote that code...)
The idea pdf having those 3 engines we have right now is to combine things that we thought sounded good together, and make obvious distinguished character available instantly. Otherwise we'd have the interface cluttered with selectors of possibly homeopathic quality, where people would possibly spend quite some time trying to point out differences.
So now we've got the idea of possibly adding another distinct engine, and then one mode where people can select any combination of the four. But the filters for instance would only ever be changed together, as would the oscillators, envelopes and whatever else there is to it (I can't remember every detail, it was 8+ years ago when I wrote that code...)
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- KVRAF
- 3408 posts since 26 Mar, 2002 from london
Yes, that sounds great. There's often that moment in sound design where it becomes clear that a certain adjustment would be optimal, and whilst everything prior is set up perfectly it then becomes clear that the desired adjustment is beyond what the parameters allow. Independent detune style seems particularly to fit that case.
Every day takes figuring out all over again how to f#ckin’ live.
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- KVRAF
- 2397 posts since 9 Jan, 2014 from Worldwide
There is some comparison here:HcDoom wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:47 pm Hello!
Whats the difference between Diva and Hive supersaw sound? I know Diva is based on JP...but Hives one is based on...? What divides them apart, sound wise?
Thx
https://newloops.com/pages/24-synth-supersaw-comparison
Hive makes a really good supersaw.
Dune 3 presets! - https://newloops.com/collections/dune-presets
Diva, Hive, Repro, Presets - https://newloops.com/collections/u-he-synths-presets
185 Omnisphere Presets https://newloops.com/products/omnispher ... -2-presets
Diva, Hive, Repro, Presets - https://newloops.com/collections/u-he-synths-presets
185 Omnisphere Presets https://newloops.com/products/omnispher ... -2-presets
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- u-he
- 30208 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin