KVR Audio

Lotuzia · Post by **Lotuzia** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:50 pm

Xils LE V2.0. Modular analog at the price of a couple pizzas. Prsitine analog feel.

ras.s · Post by **ras.s** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:52 pm

thecontrolcentre wrote:
Dasheesh wrote:oh no. I own mine. They are an instrument and I treat them as such...believe that. I paid for them, I own them.
In you dreams mebbe :zzz:

Actually, thecontrolcentre is right and you, Dasheesh, are wrong.

Just about every time you install a piece of software, you agree to the terms of its End User License Agreement. And just about every time, by agreeing to the terms in the license, you have to acknowledge that you don't own the software and never will. Generally the only exceptions are softwares released to the public domain or licensed under a free software license, such as the GPL, MIT or BSD licenses.

Take these examples from the license agreements of two plugins people have recommended. Both of them also force the user to acknowledge that what they get is what they get and that they have no rights over the software that they think they own, while the developers are not liable for anything, including but not limited to the software not functioning.

KV331 Software wrote: 1. General Grant of License
The Product is not sold. KV331 Audio grants You a nonexclusive, nontransferable license to use the Product only under the terms of this Agreement. This Agreement gives You limited rights to use the Software for the purposes described in the Software Documentation. This Agreement does not grant You any ownership or intellectual property rights to the Product in part or whole. The Product and any copies that you are authorized by KV331 Audio to make are the intellectual property of and are owned by KV331 Audio.

...

5. Disclaimer of Warranties
THE PRODUCT IS PROVIDED "AS IS AND WITH ALL FAULTS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OR CONDITIONS OF ANY KIND. THE PRODUCT MAY CONTAIN BUGS, ERRORS, OR OTHER PROBLEMS. YOU EXPRESSLY ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT USE OF THE PRODUCT IS AT YOUR SOLE RISK AND THAT YOU AGREE TO ACCEPT THE PRODUCT "AS IS AND WITH ALL FAULTS". KV331 AUDIO MAKES NO WARRANTIES AND CONDITIONS WITH RESPECT TO THE PRODUCT, EITHER EXPRESS, IMPLIED OR STATUTORY, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES AND/OR CONDITIONS OF MERCHANTABILITY, OF SATISFACTORY QUALITY, OF FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, AND NON-INFRINGEMENT OF THIRD PARTY RIGHTS. KV331 AUDIO RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REVISE THE PRODUCT WITHOUT OBLIGATION TO NOTIFY ANY INDIVIDUAL OR ENTITY OF SUCH REVISIONS. KV331 AUDIO DOES NOT AND CANNOT WARRANT THAT THE PERFORMANCE OR RESULTS YOU MAY OBTAIN BY USING THE PRODUCT WILL MEET YOUR REQUIREMENTS, OR THAT THE PRODUCT WILL BE ERROR-FREE OR UNINTERRUPTED, OR THAT DEFECTS IN THE PRODUCT WILL BE CORRECTED. THE PROVISIONS OF SECTION 5 AND SECTION 6 SHALL SURVIVE THE TERMINATION OF THIS AGREEMENT, HOWEVER CAUSED, BUT THIS SHALL NOT IMPLY OR CREATE ANY CONTINUED RIGHT TO USE THE PRODUCT AFTER TERMINATION OF THIS AGREEMENT.

6. Limitation of Liability
IN NO EVENT SHALL KV331 AUDIO, ITS MEMBERS, MANAGERS, EMPLOYEES, AND AFFILIATES (COLLECTIVELY REFERRED TO AS "KV331 AUDIO" FOR THE PURPOSES OF SECTIONS 5 AND 6) BE LIABLE TO YOU OR OTHERS FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR SPECIAL DAMAGES WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, LOSS OF GOODWILL, LOSS OF SAVINGS, LOSS OF DATA, LOSS OF BUSINESS INFORMATION, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION OR ANY OTHER COMMERCIAL DAMAGES OR LOSES), RESULTING FROM ANY DEFECT IN THE PRODUCT WHETHER FORESEEABLE OR NOT, ARISING OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PRODUCT, HOWEVER CAUSED, REGARDLESS OF THE THEORY OF LIABILITY (CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE) AND EVEN IF KV331 AUDIO HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. IN PARTICULAR, KV331 AUDIO SHALL HAVE NO LIABILITY FOR ANY DATA STORED IN OR USED WITH THE PRODUCT, INCLUDING THE COST OF RECOVERING SUCH DATA. THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS, EXCLUSIONS AND DISCLAIMERS APPLY TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. IN NO EVENT SHALL KV331 AUDIO'S ENTIRE LIABILITY UNDER ANY PROVISION OF THIS AGREEMENT EXCEED THE AMOUNT ACTUALLY PAID BY YOU FOR THE PRODUCT, IF ANY.

Mutools wrote: Your MUX Modular User Key is strictly personal to You only.

You may not distribute, share, sell, give away, rent, lease or sublicense your MUX Modular User Key.

You may not distribute, share, sell, give away, rent, lease or sublicense MUX Modular.

You may not decompile, reverse engineer or disassemble MUX Modular.

You may not modify MUX Modular or create derivative works based upon MUX Modular.

This Agreement gives You limited rights to use MUX Modular.

Although You own the media on which MUX Modular is recorded, You do not become the owner of MUX Modular.

All rights not specifically granted in This Agreement are reserved by MuTools.

...

Section D: DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY

MUX Modular is provided "AS IS" without warranty of any kind either express or implied, including but not limited to any implied warranties of merchantability, non-infringement or fitness for a particular purpose, all of which MuTools specifically disclaims to the maximum extent permitted by law.

Use MUX Modular at Your own risk.

MuTools will not be liable for any data loss, damages, loss of profits or any other kind of loss while You're using MUX Modular.

MuTools does not warrant that the functions contained in MUX Modular will meet Your requirements or that the operation of MUX Modular will be uninterrupted or error free.

It may sound like a technicality, but those license agreements have practical consequences, such as not being able to resell the software, not being able to modify it in any way or by just dictating what it must be used for (for example, no resampling allowed). A physical instrument does not have such limitations (perhaps with the exception of ones containing sampled sounds); they are yours to do whatever you want with them.

Even after this, a wholehearted recommendation for both Synthmaster and MUX -- both of them are insanely deep and very capable pieces of software and if one finds them suitable, they'll probably enjoy using them for years to come.

yessongs · Post by **yessongs** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 1:59 pm

synthmaster has the most versatility for a synth that can do more things. Listen to Nori's demos to see what his patches sound like they have a soundcloud page you can listen to all day long at. They have so many preset packages to add that may have the right sound you are looking for.

KingClarkie · Post by **KingClarkie** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:16 pm

ras.s wrote:Generally the only exceptions are softwares released to the public domain or licensed under a free software license, such as the GPL, MIT or BSD licenses.

You don't own software distributed under these licenses any more than you do commercially licensed software. Even GPL/MIT/etc licensed software has a copyright owner and it's that copyright owner that owns the software.

The only difference between commercially licensed software and 'free' software is that the free software copyright holder gives you more freedom in using the software than commercial copyright holders normally do. In either case you are accepting the terms of the respective license agreements when you use the software.

hivkorn · Post by **hivkorn** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:23 pm

alpha 3 , octopus anbd RMV from linplug (20 $ each one) are no "brainer affordable synth"

sfd · Post by **sfd** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:37 pm

Minisyn'X is a great great synth for the money. It's an amazing emulation of the fameous ELKA Synthex.

You cna read my review here

Price - only €59 !!!!

Another great great price worthy synth from the same developer (XILS-Lab) is PolyKB II Player. It's a perfect emulation of the RFS Kobol. A moog styled synth. It's a Kobol you hear as the intro sound of Yazoo's song Only You (Vince Clarke).

And the price? Even better €39 only !

Don't let the low prices fool you into thinking. low proce = low quality. Those two synths from XILS-Lab are of a very very hight quality.

GHOST19 · Post by **GHOST19** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:42 pm

ras.s wrote: Just about every time you install a piece of software, you agree to the terms of its End User License Agreement. And just about every time, by agreeing to the terms in the license, you have to acknowledge that you don't own the software and never will. Generally the only exceptions are softwares released to the public domain or licensed under a free software license, such as the GPL, MIT or BSD licenses.

Take these examples from the license agreements of two plugins people have recommended. Both of them also force the user to acknowledge that what they get is what they get and that they have no rights over the software that they think they own, while the developers are not liable for anything, including but not limited to the software not functioning.

No, that's exactly the same, when you buy a hardware synth you get no more intellectual property than when you buy software. Owning an unrestricted full license for a software synth is the legal lingo for owning a software synth. Legislations handling software licenses and hardware property differently has little to do with that.

ras.s · Post by **ras.s** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:58 pm

KingClarkie wrote:
ras.s wrote:Generally the only exceptions are softwares released to the public domain or licensed under a free software license, such as the GPL, MIT or BSD licenses.
You don't own software distributed under these licenses any more than you do commercially licensed software. Even GPL/MIT/etc licensed software has a copyright owner and it's that copyright owner that owns the software.

The only difference between commercially licensed software and 'free' software is that the free software copyright holder gives you more freedom in using the software than commercial copyright holders normally do. In either case you are accepting the terms of the respective license agreements when you use the software.

Well yes, you are correct -- the user still agrees to a license agreement. For example the GPL demands the consecutive works are released under the same license (if they are released) and others demand crediting the original authors, even if the license changes. But I'd argue that even if not the same as literally owning it, it's still closer to that end than what proprietary licenses allow. That is, the person is free to sell, modify and generally do whatever they want with it -- within far less restrictive limitations.

And of course even with hardware there are copyright and trademark issues, but they do limit the user less than software licenses generally do. Yet a whole another thing is hardware that run software.

A practical example is that anyone can sell their own replacement cases for hardware, but a person might not be able to release a re-skinned plugin (if it means sharing a copy of the plugin itself). Makes perfect sense of course, but it is a limitation caused by not having rights over the software. Or Roland isn't going to come after you, if you release and sell a kit that modifies the hardware itself. This is of course a matter of the very different nature of hardware and software.

GHOST19 wrote:
ras.s wrote: Just about every time you install a piece of software, you agree to the terms of its End User License Agreement. And just about every time, by agreeing to the terms in the license, you have to acknowledge that you don't own the software and never will. Generally the only exceptions are softwares released to the public domain or licensed under a free software license, such as the GPL, MIT or BSD licenses.

Take these examples from the license agreements of two plugins people have recommended. Both of them also force the user to acknowledge that what they get is what they get and that they have no rights over the software that they think they own, while the developers are not liable for anything, including but not limited to the software not functioning.
No, that's exactly the same, when you buy a hardware synth you get no more intellectual property than when you buy software. Owning an unrestricted full license for a software synth is the legal lingo for owning a software synth. Legislations handling software licenses and hardware property differently has little to do with that.

I'm not too confident it's the legal lingo -- check the licenses I quoted; both clearly state that the license owner does not own the software.

And it isn't just about intellectual property but also about for instance behaviour that can be deemed invasive by the user, such as the software calling home, searching the hard drive and deleting files, or installing files that are unnecessary for the software to run. Even if those behaviours are not mentioned anywhere, the person who agrees with the license has to accept those things. Or rather accept that their complaints will likely not be listened to.

Now of course a hardware can also do things we don't expect them to do, but since we do own them, there's a chance we might be able to do something about those things.

---

If any software developers happen to read this rather off topic rambling here, please hear me out and make the EULA clearly available on your website without the user having to download the software.

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 3:33 pm

+1 for sunrizer. been using it since it came out on iOS.

As far as the rights argument goes, it's a good discussion to have but maybe should be in it's own thread. Those legal ease agreements mean that you can't claim that you came up with the code and idea for the synthesizer, not that you don't own the product. If I buy a soft synth it's the same as buying hardware. I see what you are saying though, you don't own the intellectual rights. Which in itself is a silly concept because all these modern instruments are running the same concepts now. Sample based oscillations and for the most part have the same filters...so It's just crossing t's and dotting i's. If I wanted to fight it out in court I would have an argument. It's not like it used to be where developers actually DEVELOPED their own algorithms.

When I buy a soft synth, I'm buying the engine itself. I buy the hardware to run it separately. TBH hardware is cheaper in the long run because of all the maintenance and upkeep of computers. Some argue that they have to hire techs and such for hardware but I never needed to do all that and the cost of getting my hardware cleaned every 5 years or so was minimal.

braj · Post by **braj** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:51 pm

You own nothing once you're dead. Unless you're a zombie.

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:02 pm

I'm not dead yet. I buy my instruments because I appreciate them. I want to own them.

Zexila · Post by **Zexila** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:31 pm

Dasheesh wrote:If I buy a soft synth it's the same as buying hardware.

No, it's not.

If I wanted to fight it out in court I would have an argument.

That's where EULA comes in, granting that doesn't happen on any basis.

When I buy a soft synth, I'm buying the engine itself.

When you buy licence to use copy of the software agreeing on terms of transaction, you are doing just that, period.

chk071 · Post by **chk071** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:53 pm

If you "bought the engine", you would own it, and you would be able to make changes to it. Same with the synth plugin itself, if you would own it, you would also own the source code, and it'd be legal for you to make changes to it. Hence you only buy the "license to use the software". You are allowed to install it (sometimes limited to one, or a couple of machines), and use it (sometimes even that is restricted to the use on one, or more machines). So, no, you don't "own" software at all.

Zexila · Post by **Zexila** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:55 pm

chk071 wrote:If you "bought the engine", you would own it, and you would be able to make changes to it. Same with the synth plugin itself, if you would own it, you would also own the source code, and it'd be legal for you to make changes to it. Hence you only buy the "license to use the software". You are allowed to install it (sometimes limited to one, or a couple of machines), and use it (sometimes even that is restricted to the use on one, or more machines). So, no, you don't "own" software at all.

+1 000 000

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:57 pm

If I don't own my instrument there is no reason for me to buy it.

This is the problem with software. If you want people to respect the instrument treat it like an instrument. All the freaking presets make it unnecessary to learn the instrument or to take ownership. There is no more sense of experimentation. There is no sense of ownership when all the ownership has been taken out of it. When kids have no reason to learn how to play an instrument they just let the sequencer play the music for them. When every ten year old with a laptop has the same sounds making the same music with their only musical knowledge being hiding in a dark corner warp markering samples. When everyone goes around calling themselves musicians and can't play an instrument. When every track is the same expected and formulaic content cluttering the air with same track over and over and over again. People tune the freak out. no one cares anymore. And you know why you like it that way? because you don't want to take the effort to learn, progress, respect, adapt. Because you refuse to grow up. Because you are will never be the superstar of your dreams...or maybe you are and realize its bullshit. Because you were more interested in the name and scene than the music. Because you just wanted to be part of the cool crowd so desperately you are willing to try to take every one else down to your false and fake level.

What is the good "affordable" vst synth?