KVR Audio

Daags · Post by **Daags** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:55 pm

thanks for your input, but please folks... lets be real. what you posted above is not an alternative to actually seeing the device gui's, in real-world-usage. knowing there's a delay on the track is not the same as knowing what the paramaters are, at a glance - along with about 10 other devices (as you can see on my ableton session view)

there's a lot going for bitwig, i want to buy it, and have done since before it was ever released. so, by all means focus on its advantages but at least be realistic enough to concede its failings. at any rate it's not a failing that applies for everyone anyway, so don't take it too personally.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:30 pm

depends on how many stock device is used, if only(mainly) third-party ones(I'm using Fabs,VPS ones mainly )

then the group track inspector is more important(it's also missing from AL), double click one of them displays the affected macros(there is shortkey which opens the GUI of the selected VST(i)) changed controls automatically will be displayed in the automation lane of the given track etc. so workflow in BWS is already very nice (automation can be looped which is also missing from AL)

LooFoX · Post by **LooFoX** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:44 pm

IMHO I find Bitwig to be more user-friendly than Live, because of the tabbed projects, easy to use modulation system, session/arrangement view, automations, browser, device nesting and some other things.

Ok I oftenly see comments on the Bitwig forum about bugs but, as for me, I bought Bitwig in june and since then I had maybe 1 or 2 bugs/crashes. So not so buggy for me

.

And I think the choice between Ableton and Bitwig has to take into account the future of the two DAWs. I strongly think that a lot of the features Ableton users require in Bitwig will be implemented in version 2.0, maybe 3.0 max. But on the other hand, I think that a lot of the Bitwig only features (tabbed projects, native modulation, session/arrangement view) will never be implemented in Live, because for most of them it will require a huge code rewriting.

I'm not a Bitwig fanboy, it took me a few months to decide between Ableton and Bitwig. I still really like Ableton but every time I try to make some things with it I really miss the Bitwig key features I listed above.

As for the GUI, I prefer the colors of the Ableton GUI, but as I mentioned earlier, I strongly think that Bitwig will implement GUI color changes in next versions, so it's really not a problem for me.

That's about it for my thinking about the little war between Ableton and Bitwig. I really like Ableton Live but as for now I prefer working in Bitwig.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 3:54 pm

bounce in place also very nice in Bitwig, which can be dry or effected(if the post-fx chain of the given instrument is used)

so offline effects also can be added easily, just learned from the tips and trick topic of BWS

5Lives · Post by **5Lives** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:18 pm

I don't think anybody is denying the potential of Bitwig - but if somebody were to buy one of the two right now at this moment, which would it be? Ableton undeniably has more polish and is more mature. Take the browser for example - in my experience, I've found Ableton's faster to work with it:

Ableton:
1) CTRL-F to focus browser's search bar
2) Type in anything and search across all types (instruments, samples, etc)
3) Arrow down key to start moving through search results
4) Enter to load - awesome with Hotswap enabled

Bitwig:
1) CTRL-F to focus on browser (configurable)
2) S to focus on search bar
3) Type in query, but you can only search within the particular section you're in (Devices, samples, etc)
4) You can use key commands to move between the sections, but then it resets the query field so you have to type it in again
5) You have to use the mouse to select from the results from what I have seen.

The popup browser is a bit better in some ways in Bitwig, but it also is frustrating in another ways.

Anyway, this is just an example of the refinement Ableton has over Bitwig, which is to be expected. Bitwig will catch up - the question is when and at that point, what will Ableton have.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 4:42 pm

if u need only the session view as idea generator (or sketchpad) then buy AL otherwise so if u want or plan to use it as primary DAW buy Bitwig (or I would buy)

Bitwig currently can't be used as supporter DAW(drag and dropping working only inside of/into it, so u can't drop MIDI clips to other DAWs like from AL(MIDIs also can't be exported from it just as whole projects(all the tracks)), there is no native ReWire in it etc. )

Ogopogo · Post by **Ogopogo** » Fri Dec 11, 2015 11:09 pm

Daags wrote:
Ogopogo wrote: Ableton at 76% zoom looks poopalicious.

uh... I know appreciation of looks are subjective. but can you please tell me why it looks 'poopalicious' ?
i would assume the quality of how a graphical representation looks, in terms of size, would boil down to aliasing artificats etc. and there are absolutely none to speak of in most of the scaled down ableton options. like i said in my previous post, there are sweet and ugly spots but they are not size dependant.

so what you're saying is, by virtue of it displaying more - it is uglier ? please explain.

Open that last imagine in my post in a new tab and compare it to the other 100% ableton shot that I posted. You can see the artifacts are so bad you can't even read most of the text on the simpler device. Those are both png so that's exactly how it looks on my computer. There are no perfect spots at 77, 78, 79, etc., just fuzz. Maybe it's not the same on windows? I can't tell for sure from you shot since it's got jpeg artifacts.

Daags wrote:anyways, I've posted my own screen shots showing exactly the difference. 1366 x 768, mid spec laptop resolution limitation.

Actually those images are about 1278 by 693.

If scaling worked for me, then I'd say yeah, obviously Live blows Bitwig away in the size department. But since it doesn't on mac at least it doesn't look like that big a difference. But no, I have not spend a large amount of time working on big projects at this size.

xbitz · Post by **xbitz** » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:24 pm

Daags wrote:thanks for your input, but please folks... lets be real. what you posted above is not an alternative to actually seeing the device gui's, in real-world-usage. knowing there's a delay on the track is not the same as knowing what the paramaters are, at a glance - along with about 10 other devices (as you can see on my ableton session view)

there's a lot going for bitwig, i want to buy it, and have done since before it was ever released. so, by all means focus on its advantages but at least be realistic enough to concede its failings. at any rate it's not a failing that applies for everyone anyway, so don't take it too personally.

so yepp if u work mainly with third party things the bottom mixer in arrangement view makes Bitwig far more usable

as u can see all the layer instruments and fx unit GUIs (and their macro controls) can be reached from there and can be automated instantly

5Lives · Post by **5Lives** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:07 am

I ended up going for Ableton right now. I think Bitwig will be a real force to be reckoned with going forward though - looking forward to seeing where it is in 6-12 months.

Ogopogo · Post by **Ogopogo** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:50 am

Have fun

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:02 am

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SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:58 am

And for balance....I stop using Live so much as it was buggy, could even sync (pdc) and that was on V8 not V1! Live seems to have got it togeather now, I have been using it again as the Overbridge driver works well with Live, but I just miss the additional features I have got used to in BITWiG.

I don't think the BITWiG guys are arrogant, they are a small start up team and are incredibly approachable and helpful. They post here an Kvr, that takes some balls....they definitely listen, they even join in with the forum in jokes (we got more cowbel

)

As for plagiarism and copying, somewhat superfluous argument, all the major DAWs copy from each other, S1 was built by ex-Cubase Devs and has right click tools etc..BITWiG took some of the best bits from a range of DAW and did a lot of stuff no one has done before....but will probably copy, as it simply becomes best practice. Wait and see if Live 'copies' in clip editing and layered clip editing from BITWiG!

tooneba · Post by **tooneba** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:01 am

SLiC wrote:And for balance....I stop using Live so much as it was buggy, could even sync (pdc) and that was on V8 not V1! Live seems to have got it togeather now,

pdc is still broken as TheoM stated. There are timing issues with rhythm plugins in group track, drum rack and instrument rack.

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:11 am

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tooneba · Post by **tooneba** » Sun Dec 13, 2015 12:22 pm

TheoM wrote: plus any plugins with latency throw the visual timing out by the total highest latency of all latent plugins.

I think this has been fixed at least in 9.2. I noticed significantly reduced waiting time of playstart in a Live set which contains high latency plugin in a track.

Objective Differences: Ableton Live 9.5 vs Bitwig?