I am not sure, but I think my question concerns voice stealing in poly mode.
I have noticed that with certain patches (just one saw for instance) the sound character changes a lot and - in my view - in an ugly way when hitting the same key repeatedly before the release time is over. Spire does the same thing, Ultra Analog 2 not.
Here a little audio demo, first Sylenth, then UA2. Same patch, same recording.
https://app.box.com/s/x0jy44qzebbcmm1htyacfj7nc251ebna
I assume that UA2 does a complete restart of the envelopes, while in Sylenth maybe the release of one voice overlaps with the next voice of the same note.
Voice stealing
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fluffy_little_something fluffy_little_something https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=281847
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- KVRian
- 1330 posts since 25 Sep, 2006
This simply depends on the Polyphony setting for the preset in Sylenth1's top bar. Setting it to 1 will simply make each new key steal the single voice. Setting it higher and you'll get overlapping release times, as it should.
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fluffy_little_something fluffy_little_something https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=281847
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I know, the fake mono mode using 1 "poly" voice (but not set to mono in the lower right corner) is my favorite mono mode on Sylenth 
Sometimes I do miss a combined retrigger & last note priority mono mode, though (which UA2 also has).
Anyway, who says it "should be" the way it is? Do hw synths work like that? Is that the reference? My old Superwave synths also did a complete yet clickless restart of the voice when playing the same poly note again, just like UA2. And I think it makes sense musically speaking...
Maybe it would help if a tiny amount of fine detuning were automatically introduced for each new voice of the same note so that the overlapping voices are slightly in parallel rather than on top of each other.
Sometimes I do miss a combined retrigger & last note priority mono mode, though (which UA2 also has).Anyway, who says it "should be" the way it is? Do hw synths work like that? Is that the reference? My old Superwave synths also did a complete yet clickless restart of the voice when playing the same poly note again, just like UA2. And I think it makes sense musically speaking...
Maybe it would help if a tiny amount of fine detuning were automatically introduced for each new voice of the same note so that the overlapping voices are slightly in parallel rather than on top of each other.
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- KVRian
- 1330 posts since 25 Sep, 2006
There's nothing fake about 1 voice polyphony.fluffy_little_something wrote:I know, the fake mono mode using 1 "poly" voice
Then why didn't you use it in your little audio demo? You're now comparing apples with pears.fluffy_little_something wrote: (but not set to mono in the lower right corner) is my favorite mono mode on Sylenth
.. which is exactly what Sylenth1 does.fluffy_little_something wrote: My old Superwave synths also did a complete yet clickless restart of the voice when playing the same poly note again, just like UA2.
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fluffy_little_something fluffy_little_something https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=281847
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No, I was comparing apples to apples. I didn't use the mono mode because I am talking explicitly about polyphonic sounds, for instance string or brass patches. There one usually plays chords, but sometimes only single notes, using the same patch. Both synths on the audio were in poly mode.
Well, you yourself said that there is an overlap between the two consecutive voices of the same note due to the release. So this is not how for instance UA2 or Superwave Professional behave, judging from the sound of it. I doubt the cheap SynthEdit Superwave stuff is sophisticated enough to allow for overlapping without those ugly changes in the sound character. I think they simply and quietly cut off the release of voice x as soon I trigger voice x+1 on the same note.
I don't know if that is how for instance hardware works, but I think it sounds better. Just my opinion...
Well, you yourself said that there is an overlap between the two consecutive voices of the same note due to the release. So this is not how for instance UA2 or Superwave Professional behave, judging from the sound of it. I doubt the cheap SynthEdit Superwave stuff is sophisticated enough to allow for overlapping without those ugly changes in the sound character. I think they simply and quietly cut off the release of voice x as soon I trigger voice x+1 on the same note.
I don't know if that is how for instance hardware works, but I think it sounds better. Just my opinion...
Last edited by fluffy_little_something on Thu Jan 07, 2016 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- 1330 posts since 25 Sep, 2006
Are you saying they play with polyphonic voices (so you can play chords), but they cut off the release when new notes are played? That would be pretty ridiculous, what if you want to play strings with a long release and attack? Cutting them off would sound terrible.
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fluffy_little_something fluffy_little_something https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=281847
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Just checked in UA2, there is a retrigger button for both amp and filter envelopes. So I can choose if they are to be cut off or not. But even if I turn retrigger off for both and set attack and release to long values, the sound is exactly the same each time I hit the same key. No idea how that works. But obviously different compared to Sylenth, Spire, and Diversion.
If you don't believe me, you can try the UA2 demo yourself
If you don't believe me, you can try the UA2 demo yourself
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- KVRian
- 1330 posts since 25 Sep, 2006
Ok I tried it and see what you're getting at. If (and only if) you play a note with the same pitch, it'll just stay in the same voice, cutting of the previous released one. If you play a note with different pitch, it'll play in a new voice.
This does sound pretty unnatural to me. Every natural instrument (piano, guitar, you name it..) will just play the entire release of 2 consecutive notes of the same key. Why should a synthesizer behave differently? The only reason I can think of some synths might work this way is because it may be easier to implement in some devices.
Sure it won't sound great if you repeatedly play the same key on a simple saw osc with long release. Was that ever supposed to sound great though? When you add a filter envelope (or add additional oscs) on the other hand, it will sound much more natural and musical then simply cutting them off.
This does sound pretty unnatural to me. Every natural instrument (piano, guitar, you name it..) will just play the entire release of 2 consecutive notes of the same key. Why should a synthesizer behave differently? The only reason I can think of some synths might work this way is because it may be easier to implement in some devices.
Sure it won't sound great if you repeatedly play the same key on a simple saw osc with long release. Was that ever supposed to sound great though? When you add a filter envelope (or add additional oscs) on the other hand, it will sound much more natural and musical then simply cutting them off.
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fluffy_little_something fluffy_little_something https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=281847
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Yes, I was talking about playing the same note repeatedly. I am not sure UA2 cuts the first note off when env retrigger is disabled. I am no expert, but I think in this case they employ a kind of pick up algorithm that doesn't change the sound character.
The makers of UA2 are experts in modeling real instruments, so I don't assume what they did is unnatural. They probably gave it some thought.
Think of a guitar: Say you play an f on the g string repeatedly. If the Sylenth way were natural, there would be two or even three identical g strings. So you play the first f and while that g string is still swinging you play the same note on the identical second g string so that there is overlapping, resulting in a new sound character to the listener. But in reality there is only one g string and when the player wants to play the f repeatedly, they will play it right there on that string, they will not play the second f on one of the five other strings as that would be inefficient.
From my layman's perspective what happens when he plays the already swinging string again is that for a short moment he stops the swinging almost completely with his spectrum because the plucking involves taking the string, tightening it and then letting it go, like when shooting an arrow with a bow. There might be some minor carry over from the first note, but I think it is not simultaneous to the second note, but somehow absorbed in it. The stronger the pluck (i.e. the greater the velocity on the keyboard), the less of the first note will remain.
Indeed, as one adds more waves and/or oscillators, the issue goes away on Sylenth. Given Sylenth's target group people might never even notice when they use dozens of waves at once. But I don't like EDM, I use your synth for emulating real instruments, so I often use only one or two waves, not unlike on old poly synthesizers by the way. I wonder how an Oberheim OB8 or a Prophet behaves in that respect, would be interesting to know
Opened a thread:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 2&t=454396
The makers of UA2 are experts in modeling real instruments, so I don't assume what they did is unnatural. They probably gave it some thought.
Think of a guitar: Say you play an f on the g string repeatedly. If the Sylenth way were natural, there would be two or even three identical g strings. So you play the first f and while that g string is still swinging you play the same note on the identical second g string so that there is overlapping, resulting in a new sound character to the listener. But in reality there is only one g string and when the player wants to play the f repeatedly, they will play it right there on that string, they will not play the second f on one of the five other strings as that would be inefficient.
From my layman's perspective what happens when he plays the already swinging string again is that for a short moment he stops the swinging almost completely with his spectrum because the plucking involves taking the string, tightening it and then letting it go, like when shooting an arrow with a bow. There might be some minor carry over from the first note, but I think it is not simultaneous to the second note, but somehow absorbed in it. The stronger the pluck (i.e. the greater the velocity on the keyboard), the less of the first note will remain.
Indeed, as one adds more waves and/or oscillators, the issue goes away on Sylenth. Given Sylenth's target group people might never even notice when they use dozens of waves at once. But I don't like EDM, I use your synth for emulating real instruments, so I often use only one or two waves, not unlike on old poly synthesizers by the way. I wonder how an Oberheim OB8 or a Prophet behaves in that respect, would be interesting to know
Opened a thread:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 2&t=454396
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- KVRian
- 1330 posts since 25 Sep, 2006
A guitar may not be the best example indeed, as it can be played in many ways.
It is not, and never has been, an issue. In the end it just comes down to personal taste. Either way, I have no intentions of changing the voice algorithm in Sylenth1 as in my eyes it does exactly what it should do.fluffy_little_something wrote:Indeed, as one adds more waves and/or oscillators, the issue goes away on Sylenth.