IK and Gavin Lurssen set to unveil revolutionary mastering product at NAMM 2016

[kbaccki]

Not meaning to sound rude at all (really I'm not!) but what's your point?

I took it simply as: you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.

Re your comments above on skills of mix engineer vs ME. I think there's quite a bit of overlap in the "this is what I hear" dept, as opposed to total orthogonality.

An ME should be able to identify overcompression in a mix (eg inverse dynamics), tonal imbalance, maybe lack of stereo spread in some frequency window or another, etc. Whether or not the ME should take action on those things is a seperate question. If the producer/mixer/artist combo intended a particular thing to be a particular way then the ME shouldn't just go off and start tweaking/overtweaking, at least not without feedback and sign off from the client. Maybe a client comes to a ME with some stems and says we need a streaming version, a radio version, no-vocal, whatever. Point is, I would expect an ME to at least have the ear skills of a mix engineer to the point where the ME could say "wow, you way overcompressed the bass and in the chorus it just sounds weak as opposed to present and in your face" etc... Or maybe "just a little bit of multiband compression in the chorus would really make the bass thump"... or whatever... and if the ME can hear that, I would think the ME probably would have done something different in the mix stage.

[incubus]

Ummmmm. But assuming that you have NOT made a turd, then what?

[ghettosynth]

Not meaning to sound rude at all (really I'm not!) but what's your point?

I took it simply as: you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.

It's more than that. The gap between good and bad mix is huge, what mastering can do to improve that is necessarily limited. The best thing that many of us can do to improve what we distribute is to improve our mixing, not send things out to be mastered. It follows that if professional mastering is requisite for a project then an artist should be serious enough to consider the quality of the mix involved.

[VariKusBrainZ]

Ummmmm. But assuming that you have NOT made a turd, then what?

Highly unlikely,
have you ever popped into the music cafe ?

Most people are as good at music as they are at drawing

[jancivil]

the first time he recorded all of it strictly thru his own devices/no professional to mix it. impoverished in-the-box result; it was a thin-sounding obviously digital home result. Fortunately Dimuzio offered to master it for free. At this juncture that was the only help for it. And all of his previous work, with professionals engineering sounds superior to this.

Not meaning to sound rude at all (really I'm not!) but what's your point?

Some things need more help from such an engineer than others. My position consistently has been that quite a lot of this mastering as de rigeur is a concern that may be better placed with the mix job. At the same time he was up in SF with Dimuzio I was holed up mixing all day; quite a lot of the (repair) work really will have been unnecessary with better sound sources and a certain experience to draw from.

So, upshot is, that album is immensely better post-Dimuzio; what I make does not have those problems. At one time it really did, it needed a lot of doctor's care. It was unlikely that quality of free help will have happened for me for whole releases, so was it better to throw money at services of a mastering pro or at products I still use all the time (and eventually I'm self-sufficient).

[jancivil]

I can make the pro-mastering argument as well. There are certain things I've noticed that sound improbably good on this MacBook's tiny speakers. That I would bet sound optimal on everything in the world. If I was releasing physical product that I can't take back, committing to like that, in a commercial enterprise, I would have the appropriate outlook, and consult with folks.

"An ME should be able to identify overcompression in a mix (eg inverse dynamics), tonal imbalance, maybe lack of stereo spread in some frequency window or another, etc."

The object that comes to mind for me as to 'this sounds ridiculously good on these tiny speakers' is Frank Zappa's posthumous release Trance Fusion. Which he intended to release. I looked it up or somewhat, and the ME on that had remarked on how the drums, particularly Wackerman's toms (this very idiomatic feature of early 80's Zappa mixes) were "pre-mastered" and they would jump out at you insanely, and what a nightmare it was to master this product. So as to kbackki's points, there should be a rapport and habits established if the mixing is to be enhanced in mastering. Which is a fortunate situation to be in. So it looks like this amazing end result, of live recordings where the toms stereo spread is ridic., and in the kind of relief they are, the separation and the seriously improbable pristine clarity, was a process where the artist was doing unheard-of shit (but Bob Stone or somebody knew what was up).

[do_androids_dream]

Re your comments above on skills of mix engineer vs ME. I think there's quite a bit of overlap in the "this is what I hear" dept, as opposed to total orthogonality.

Almost all mastering engineers have spent a long time on the mixing side so yes, it all comes from the same place.. but, once you have your mastering head on it is a different ball game and you're coming at things from a different angle.

An ME should be able to identify overcompression in a mix (eg inverse dynamics), tonal imbalance, maybe lack of stereo spread in some frequency window or another, etc.

Yes, and they should be able to recognise those things within minutes of hitting the space bar for the first time on a new track. That's why it's extremely important to have a completely solid 'reference point' - the room and set-up you work with and, of course, your ears - your skill.

Whether or not the ME should take action on those things is a seperate question.

There are many factors involved: Taste; audience expectation; required loudness level; relationship with client; creative freedom (there is some creative freedom with mastering); other things besides..

If the producer/mixer/artist combo intended a particular thing to be a particular way then the ME shouldn't just go off and start tweaking/overtweaking,

A good ME should never really be 'going off tweaking' - you only act upon things which need to be acted on - that's the whole point. Sometimes, you might go through your compressors to see if one suddenly has a magic effect on a song but you're never really tweaking in the same way you tweak things in a mix.

I would expect an ME to at least have the ear skills of a mix engineer to the point where the ME could say "wow, you way overcompressed the bass and in the chorus it just sounds weak as opposed to present and in your face" etc... Or maybe "just a little bit of multiband compression in the chorus would really make the bass thump"... or whatever... and if the ME can hear that, I would think the ME probably would have done something different in the mix stage.

It absolutely is part of an ME's job to recognise mix issues that could be better treated at source so yes, you're right there. However, it's not their job to impose their taste on the mix really - perhaps if they are bonafide part of the furniture in a certain genre.. If an ME hasn't done much mixing I wouldn't have much faith in their ability. There are plenty of folks out there calling themselves mastering engineers who just throw your precious music through ozone presets - so beware! No ME worth his salt uses presets.. Ask plenty of questions first before picking an ME..

[ghettosynth]

Ummmmm. But assuming that you have NOT made a turd, then what?

Highly unlikely,
have you ever popped into the music cafe ?

Most people are as good at music as they are at drawing

You have not seen my drawing. Nobody is that bad at music, nobody.

[Doug1978]

^^ As if to connect all the different themes in this thread...




Only 343 days to go til the next one.

[bmanic]

If an ME hasn't done much mixing I wouldn't have much faith in their ability.

This is a very dangerous way to look at it. There are some ridiculously good mastering engineers around who openly admit that they absolutely suck at mixing.

A good example is Brian Lucey from from Magic Garden Mastering. The dude is really talented in mastering but he himself says he can't mix at all.

And in my opinion it makes sense. Mixing and mastering are two completely different kinds of mindsets. Just they way recording and mixing are two completely different kind of mindsets. Or composing vs mixing. Both have similar elements (the "mix" is already formed within the composition) but still very different mindsets.

Mastering is about being a master of compromises. Threading the thin red line of what should and should not be done, sprinkled with subjective taste, always working towards a common denominator - translation.

[bmanic]

Not meaning to sound rude at all (really I'm not!) but what's your point?

I took it simply as: you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.

This is how I see it: A skilled mastering engineer will be able to make that turd translate universally on all speaker systems. It'll still be a turd but it'll sound equally shit on everything.

[murnau]

I took it simply as: you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.

How do you polish a turd? Do you stick a buttercup in it? And why when nobody cares?

[do_androids_dream]

There are some ridiculously good mastering engineers around who openly admit that they absolutely suck at mixing.

Sorry but that doesn't translate at all. How can an ME advise you on your mix if they (fill in the blank)...?

[antithesist]

Mastered or mass-turd?

[Burillo]

Mastered or mass-turd?