Satin and ADT (Automatic Double Tracking )

[enricoasli]

Hi!
Is it possible to match the ADT-Effect with Satin ( maybe with the flanging/delay effect ) or using two instances of satin put in a row?

Best regards
Asli

[Breeze]

I did it using Bidule as a sub-host and it sounds really nice. But actually it occurred to me that it wouldn't be too hard to introduce this mode in Satin, at least for the ADT signal. "Reel ADT" uses 2 decks: one for the main signal and another for the ADT. I put a diagram and explanation up in the "Reel ADT" thread in the effects forum.

The effect has to create latency in a DAW because you have to be able to give precedence in time to the ADT signal. So you have to delay the main signal by the amount you want to be able to precede it with the ADT. In the Waves effect, that's up to 40ms delay. So the setup looks like this:

Input -> (Satin instance 1 - Studio Mode) -> 40ms delay-> Out for Main Signal
Above Pre-Delay to -> Satin instance 2 - Delay Mode -> Out for ADT Signal

Note that you don't have to use the first instance of Satin; that's only if you want to color the main signal. But you still have to delay the main signal.

Then you adjust the delay of the second instance so it lines up in time with the main signal to establish your baseline time "0". After that you adjust and modulate the delay back and forth to taste. Ideally, it would be nice to have additional waveforms from the U-he catalog, in particular smooth random, but this can be automated by MIDI. Compared to the other guys', Satin also gives you much deeper access to fine tune the sound.

You could also create this setup on tracks in a DAW; you'd lose auto PDC, but you can compensate for it in most DAWs using track delay/advance.

[Simon-Claudius]

I've just tried something similar after seeing Waves' new Reel ADT plugin.

I put Satin in Delay mode with two repro heads, set the head pans to hard left hard right for the two heads respectively, and turned their output levels to 100. For one of the repro heads I put the head distance, the modulation rate and the modulation amount to 0. For the other one I set a slight delay, and adjusted delay modulation rate and amount to taste. The mix knob I put to 100.

I don't know how closely this resembles the way ADT was done back in the day, but it sounds pretty good to my ears.

[frankvg]

Since there is also a change in pitch when you delay a reel, this can't compare to the real ADT effect. Afaik Satin can't do proper varispeed so you'll also need a pitchshifter for this to work.

[Simon-Claudius]

Modulating the position of the repro head, while not varying the speed at which the reels turn does result in continuous pitch changes, though.

[Simon-Claudius]

@frankvg: Reading your post again it occurs to me that I'm not sure I understood your point correctly. Could you rephrase it perchance?

[Breeze]

@frankvg: Reading your post again it occurs to me that I'm not sure I understood your point correctly. Could you rephrase it perchance?

frankvg is wrong in the sense that you're right

Satin isn't a tape recorder, so it doesn't play things back that have been recorded constantly faster or slower. That's what Varispeed is originally (used to slow recordings down to allow some singers reach that high note they might not quite make naturally...) But that's not what Varispeed does in the context of ADT.

For ADT, Satin works exactly as expected. The modulation introduces pitch shifts as tape would when speed is varied. You can also vary the position of the signal using the tape heads. If you want to add some unpredictability you can increase the Wow & Flutter in the Service Panel, but it would be better to have a random LFO wave for modulation. If you want something more extreme you can automate the tape heads with external LFO's or manually, but you need some mod scaling to make that work well. In fact to do it manually, the Flange mode works well too.

It would be a no-brainer to introduce this as a new mode in Satin. It's practically all there.

[daddylongleggaren]

I was expecting the mod rate / mod amount for the different delay repro heads to be acting a little bit differently. I initially thought they would modulate and "sample" the position at the time of the delay, creating delays with varying time. Am I correct to understand that the effect is more subtle and creates minor movements in the pitch / time (due to the change of tape speed)?

[Howard]

I was expecting the mod rate / mod amount for the different delay repro heads to be acting a little bit differently. I initially thought they would modulate and "sample" the position at the time of the delay, creating delays with varying time. Am I correct to understand that the effect is more subtle and creates minor movements in the pitch / time (due to the change of tape speed)?

Sure, exactly like manually or mechanically moving real tape heads back and forth.
(BTW I don't get what you meant by "sample the position at the time of the delay" - is there another way to describe that?)

[daddylongleggaren]

The way I interpreted the interface is that when mod rate is turned up, and the colored bar starts to oscillate, the end of the bar represents the temporary distance of the reprohead (which is of course weird in a way since it goes in two directions). So in a synced mode with full mod rate + mod amount the delay time would move between 1/16th note and 8/16 (1/2)th note values. I just expected the delay modulation to be the same as the distance allowed by the distance parameter, instead as I understand it now, it is a much smaller and subtler modulation.

Did that make any sense?

[comfortablynick]

I recently purchased Satin and have been searching for how to manually set up ADT using two instances.

The second post in this thread is helpful, but using Reaper I haven't found a concise explanation on how to route the tracks to achieve the true effect. Does anyone know how to do this (ideally not requiring copying of tracks to duplicate them and time shift them)? I'm sure Reaper can be tricked into delaying all but the ADT track properly so that the requisite "through zero" effect can be achieved.

For the most part I'm trying to take a single mono vocal track and send it to one ADT aux track (or two if needed). I think I need a negative delay in there somewhere to allow the ADT'd track to come in 40ms ahead of the original, but I can't quite get it working for some reason.

Thanks, I appreciate any help I can get!

It would be great if an ADT mode could be added to Satin! It could be the best way to achieve that effect ITB...I'm sure u-he could do a lot better than Waves!

Nick

[Howard]

I've just tried something similar after seeing Waves' new Reel ADT plugin.

I put Satin in Delay mode with two repro heads, set the head pans to hard left hard right for the two heads respectively, and turned their output levels to 100. For one of the repro heads I put the head distance, the modulation rate and the modulation amount to 0. For the other one I set a slight delay, and adjusted delay modulation rate and amount to taste. The mix knob I put to 100.

I don't know how closely this resembles the way ADT was done back in the day, but it sounds pretty good to my ears.

I'm no ADT expert, but I reckon this is about right i.e. you only need a single instance of Satin. HOWEVER, you do need to take care with those delay times and LFO settings (maximum tape "Speed" helps). BTW I found that setting Mix to not quite 100% sounds great.

[comfortablynick]

I've just tried something similar after seeing Waves' new Reel ADT plugin.

I put Satin in Delay mode with two repro heads, set the head pans to hard left hard right for the two heads respectively, and turned their output levels to 100. For one of the repro heads I put the head distance, the modulation rate and the modulation amount to 0. For the other one I set a slight delay, and adjusted delay modulation rate and amount to taste. The mix knob I put to 100.

I don't know how closely this resembles the way ADT was done back in the day, but it sounds pretty good to my ears.

I'm no ADT expert, but I reckon this is about right i.e. you only need a single instance of Satin. HOWEVER, you do need to take care with those delay times and LFO settings (maximum tape "Speed" helps). BTW I found that setting Mix to not quite 100% sounds great.

Is that all that's required to get the ADT sound? It would be great to do it with one instance, that's for sure!

I guess one issue with using one instance of Satin is that both heads have to have the same "tape machine" settings. I will play with it and see how it sounds!

Nick