Time signature

[Nonno]

How to change time signature? And what to do if I want to change time signature at a certain point of the song (for example form 4/4 to 6/8 )?

[MuTools]

How to change time signature?

Right-click the composer background.

In one of the next versions, it will also be available via right-click on composer time bar.

And what to do if I want to change time signature at a certain point of the song (for example form 4/4 to 6/8 )?

That's not yet supported, but on the wishlist.

[pljones]

That's not yet supported, but on the wishlist.

Please make time signature a per-part setting. I'd like to be able to use the composer to arrange a 7/8 part against a 5/4 part.

Oh, whilst I remember: tempo automation... The tempo control could be just another module, target-able in the usual ways for automation. That would fit the MuLab way of doing things nicely?

(...and a "Part" is really just a module that emits events at intervals under control of the sequencer... yes, I'm getting carried away...)

[MuTools]

That's not yet supported, but on the wishlist.

Please make time signature a per-part setting. I'd like to be able to use the composer to arrange a 7/8 part against a 5/4 part.

And so which TS must the composer time bar show?

Oh, whilst I remember: tempo automation... The tempo control could be just another module, target-able in the usual ways for automation. That would fit the MuLab way of doing things nicely?

Tempi is defined per composition. Modules are session wide, so common to all compositions in a session, so that makes it difficult i think.

Cfr http://www.mutools.com/mulab/docs/pics/architecture.png

(...and a "Part" is really just a module that emits events at intervals under control of the sequencer... yes, I'm getting carried away...)

Yes i also like to brainstorm in those directions...
We'll see...

[pljones]

That's not yet supported, but on the wishlist.

Please make time signature a per-part setting. I'd like to be able to use the composer to arrange a 7/8 part against a 5/4 part.

And so which TS must the composer time bar show?

Ah good, start with the easy question. The time signature of the selected part. (Of course, a track could also have a time signature that overrode a part and a composition could have one that overrode everything. Up to the user where they want to control it, so up to the user how much complexity they get.)

Oh, whilst I remember: tempo automation... The tempo control could be just another module, target-able in the usual ways for automation. That would fit the MuLab way of doing things nicely?

Tempi is defined per composition. Modules are session wide, so common to all compositions in a session, so that makes it difficult i think.
Cfr http://www.mutools.com/mulab/docs/pics/architecture.png

Mmm... So there need to be multiple tempo controls, one per composition? Does the sequencer play multiple compositions concurrently, then? (I've not tried that.) I'd imagined one sequencer per session with the tempo control implicitly bound to the sequencer. If there's one sequencer per composition that does make things a little more complicated - you would need to know which tempo you were controlling.

I guess I tend to think of a single sequencer as a consequence of how I imagine MuLab handling incoming MIDI messages like Song Position... But with multiple compositions, how would MuLab know which song anyway? I shall have to amend my model to fit the architecture .

[MuTools]

Ah good, start with the easy question. The time signature of the selected part. (Of course, a track could also have a time signature that overrode a part and a composition could have one that overrode everything. Up to the user where they want to control it, so up to the user how much complexity they get.)

And so the other parts in the composition must live with an irrelevant time bar until they're selected?

Anyway, i think it's a topic that is not short term related.
But it never hurts to touch such things for a moment to keep longer term views open.

Does the sequencer play multiple compositions concurrently, then?

No, at the moment a session can only play 1 composition at a time.
But i keep things open wrt parrallel playing compositions.

Wrt your 'tempo module' suggestion: i like the abstract of the idea; i'll think it over wrt concrete implementation, which is not as easy for the mentioned reason.

[pljones]

And so the other parts in the composition must live with an irrelevant time bar until they're selected?

Similar to living with an irrelevant Focussed Module Panel when another is selected at the moment, yes. I feel it's better to sacrifice that than constrain the program to only allowing the option of one concurrent time signature, anyway.

Anyway, i think it's a topic that is not short term related.
But it never hurts to touch such things for a moment to keep longer term views open.

Yes, just buzzing ideas around.

[MuTools]

Similar to living with an irrelevant Focussed Module Panel when another is selected at the moment, yes.

How do you mean?

[pljones]

Currently, a similar thing happens with the Focussed Module Panel. Open up "Birds of Io". Click on the different parts. The Focussed Module tracks the Part's targeted module. Other parts do not have their targeted module shown.

A similar idea would apply for the time signature. Selecting a part would show the time signature for that part. Other, parts would not have their time signature shown.

[MuTools]

For me that's a different situation: With the FMP following the selected part/track there never is a 'wrong' display. But when the composer's time bar would use time signature 7/5 while some other parts in the composition are using time signature 3/4 then the time bar will be wrong for those parts.

[MuTools]

Please make time signature a per-part setting. I'd like to be able to use the composer to arrange a 7/8 part against a 5/4 part.

As far as my musical experience and insight goes, i think that using multiple parrallel time signatures, thus eg having a 7/8 part and a 5/4 part at the same time is very exceptional/experimental. Correct me if i'm wrong. I also think it's not straightforward to implement in an easy way.

Anyway, note that you can use such parrallel time signatures already with MuLab if you want. It's just that you need to abstract the time bar display a bit.

I do agree that the composer should support serial time signature changes eg at bar 49 TS is 4/4, at bar 57 TS is 3/8, at bar 65 it's 4/4 again etc.

[pljones]

I agree on your insight. However, I'll just add that if I create a part in 5/4 and export it from one project, I probably expect it to be in 5/4 if I import it into another project. Even if it's (initially) in parallel with parts in a different time signature - that I then move to make space. I don't really want to also have to worry about changing the time signature again, as that should have been with the part. It's like picking up a piece of printed music score - each part has the time signature shown. You can hand that part to anyone in any context and it goes with its time signature. I think that way of thinking about it feels pretty natural.

[MuTools]

I see your point. Then tempo should also be per part?

Now just for my curiosity: Can you point me to a popular piece of music that uses different time signatures at the same time?

[pljones]

Tricky on tempo... I don't see it being needed as you'd generally score a situation where one player sounded to be slowing by writing their part with longer notes/rests, rather than giving them an individual rallentando, I think. In an orchestra, the conductor would not be conducting them at a separate tempo but the notes would reflect how they should be played against the overall tempo.

Arguably, that's what happens in the vast majority of cases with time signature, too, of course - if a brief passage is intended to sound like one player is in 5/4 over the group at 4/4, you just add accents to get the effect. I'm still wracking my brain to remember where I've seen it used: it would have been in some weird experimental piece, certainly -- it would have been in extended parts. (And it's not the same idea as a piece where everyone switches for a bar or two - there's plenty of examples of that in all genres.)

[danreyn]

To change time signature, right-click on the tempo and choose "set beats per bar".

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