bank 1 and zero in live and zebra2

[zethus909]

how to make zebra pretend there is no bank zero......for programs in ableton, it starts on 1, there is no zero, so this causes a complication, somewhat annoying but potentially very dangerous in live situation.....how can i make zebra match up with ableton so that bank 1 in zebra is bank 1 in ableton....because every bank is always minus 1 and idk...is there just a way of fixing this?

[bmrzycki]

I wrote this a while ago about midi program change in Zebra:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 1&t=436863

For your particular case, just make a directory 000 under "Midi programs" and put init.h2p in it. Then put the patches you care about in 001-127. I don't own Live so I can't confirm it but it's worth giving a try.

[#rob]

I'm not near a Live installation right now, but is there no Bank 0 to select in Live?

If not, then I assume it must be some sort of aid for non-programmers who are not used to start counting at 0. You say that Live's bank 1 selects Zebra2's bank 0, if I understood you correctly, so that would make sense.

However, the official MIDI spec clearly states that values for bank/program changes range from 0 to 127. Not from 1 to 128.
https://www.midi.org/specifications/ite ... ta-bytes-2
It's the first entry on the list, fittingly numbered 0.

I really don't see anything to fix for us, our software does what the MIDI standard says it should do... And although I don't have the power to decide this, I'm pretty certain that we will not be putting a host-specific "start counting at 1" exception/workaround into our plugins.

[zethus909]

thanks, yea its weird, live's banks are 1-128, no zero, but ie. I made a kicks bank folder inside the midi programs folder and labelled it 001, the midi programs folder has no presets in it......then i made 002 003 and 004 additional folders.....and put into midi program folder.

when i choose program 1 in ableton is plays the right presets, kicks, but it still plays those same presets even if i toggle it up to program 2......weird...

then in another track i choose program 2, and it plays the right presets from 002 folder......but then i have another track for pitch risers (bank 003) and i select program 3 in Live but it plays the presets form bank 002, so incorrectly.....

fyi i have no more then 8 presets in each bank

and also like i was mentioning before, if i put presets into the midi programs folder (no sub bank folder), Live chooses them via Program 1

Live has a subfolder option....so i can choose Program 1>Subfolder1 for instance.....but Live doesnt seem to recognize the actual subfolder in the midi programs folder.....it recognizes only Programs 1 2 3 etc

so if i make the actual subfolder in the midi programs folder like i said...ableton reads it like it's just folder 2, or program 2

*now having said all that....the way it works right, is to put the Kicks presets directly in the midi programs folder....then if i delete the 001Kicks subffolder, and just have subfolders 002 003 004 in the midi programs folder......then everything works perfectly fine..

Live reads the midi programs folder as Program 1, Live reads folder 002 as Program 2, etc....

..so it does work...lol....i'm not saying it doesnt work..i'm glad it at least works....it's just that you have to basically turn a blind eye to the bank that zebra is showing inside zebra as the correct bank....because it's not...not in reality..in Live......

[#rob]

If I understood correctly, you now have this folder structure:

MIDI Programs/
MIDI Programs/001/
MIDI Programs/002/
etc.

You need to differentiate between Banks and Programs.
Banks are folders, Programs are presets.
For reliably successful Bank/Program changes, I recommend to *always* send both Bank and Program in one go, not just one of them.

If you select (by Zebra2 and MIDI logic) Bank 0 Preset 0, that will load the first patch in the root MIDI Programs folder.
If you select (by Zebra2 and MIDI logic) Bank 1 Preset 1, that will load the second patch in the first sub-folder of the MIDI Programs root.
If you select (by Zebra2 and MIDI logic) Bank 4 Preset 7, that will load the 8th patch in the 3rd sub-folder of the MIDI Programs root.

But I don't know how Live will handle this.
I'll have to look into that in more depth when I have the time, or rather delegate it to my colleague who is more familiar with Live.

[Howard]

If I understood correctly, you now have this folder structure:
MIDI Programs/
MIDI Programs/001/
MIDI Programs/002/
etc.

I understood that he has the following structure
(should work in any host that counts banks 1 to 128 instead of 0 to 127):

MIDI Programs/
MIDI Programs/002/
MIDI Programs/003/ etc..

i.e. there simply is no folder called "001".

[zethus909]

If I understood correctly, you now have this folder structure:
MIDI Programs/
MIDI Programs/001/
MIDI Programs/002/
etc.

I understood that he has the following structure
(should work in any host that counts banks 1 to 128 instead of 0 to 127):

MIDI Programs/
MIDI Programs/002/
MIDI Programs/003/ etc..

i.e. there simply is no folder called "001".

yes thats how i have it...

[#rob]

If I open the file manager on my system and follow your instructions, this is what I get:

I made a kicks bank folder

/Kicks bank/

inside the midi programs folder

/MIDI Programs/Kicks bank/

and labelled it 001

/MIDI Programs/001/

So you're saying that is not the case?

But anyway. Zebra2 or the MIDI standard don't really care what you name the folders and files. The first one is going to be 0, the second one is going to be 1 and the third they find is always going to be 2.

You could name your patches like this:
/002 - Something.h2p
/186 - Something Else.h2p

And Zebra2/MIDI would always refer to them as:
Program 0 --> /002 - Something.h2p
Program 1 --> /186 - Something Else.h2p

The same goes for Banks, with the exception that Zebra2 uses the root /MIDI Programs/ folder as its Bank 0.

So if you name your folders like this:
/MIDI Programs/
/MIDI Programs/002/
/MIDI Programs/003/

Then Zebra2/MIDI would refer to them as:
Bank 0 --> /MIDI Programs/
Bank 1 --> /MIDI Programs/002/
Bank 2 --> /MIDI Programs/003/

And if you name your folders like this:
/MIDI Programs/
/MIDI Programs/001 Kicks/
/MIDI Programs/097 Snares/

Then Zebra2/MIDI would still refer to them as above.

If Ableton Live starts counting Banks and Programs at 1 and you want to have that reflected in the file names, then just name your folders and patches accordingly.

For example, if you have this structure:
/MIDI Programs/
/MIDI Programs/002 Kicks/
/MIDI Programs/002 Kicks/001 Fat Kick.h2p
/MIDI Programs/002 Kicks/002 Fatter Kick.h2p
/MIDI Programs/003 Snares/
/MIDI Programs/003 Snares/001 Fat Snare.h2p
/MIDI Programs/003 Snares/002 Fatter Snare.h2p

Then Zebra2 would see the structure like this:
Bank 0 --> /MIDI Programs/
Bank 1 --> /MIDI Programs/002 Kicks/
Bank 1 Program 0 --> /MIDI Programs/002 Kicks/001 Fat Kick.h2p
Bank 1 Program 1 --> /MIDI Programs/002 Kicks/002 Fatter Kick.h2p
Bank 2 --> /MIDI Programs/003 Snares/
Bank 2 Program 0 --> /MIDI Programs/003 Snares/001 Fat Snare.h2p
Bank 2 Program 1 --> /MIDI Programs/003 Snares/002 Fatter Snare.h2p

But Live, as I understand it from your report, would count like this:
Bank 1 --> /MIDI Programs/
Bank 2 --> /MIDI Programs/002 Kicks/
Bank 2 Program 1 --> /MIDI Programs/002 Kicks/001 Fat Kick.h2p
Bank 2 Program 2 --> /MIDI Programs/002 Kicks/002 Fatter Kick.h2p
Bank 3 --> /MIDI Programs/003 Snares/
Bank 3 Program 1 --> /MIDI Programs/003 Snares/001 Fat Snare.h2p
Bank 3 Program 2 --> /MIDI Programs/003 Snares/002 Fatter Snare.h2p

So if you simply start naming the folders at /MIDI Programs/002/ and start naming the patches at 001, doesn't that already solve your issue?

[zethus909]

it's just like, Live reads the midi programs folder as prog 1, that's just what it does.....live reads whatever folder is there first as the first folder....so.....it's either Live has to change, or i just use the midi program folder as prog 1, even though in zebra reality it is zero

in Live reality it is Prog 1...and since i'm using Live, thats the reality I have to abide by

bottom line it works, and when something works, i'm just going to roll with it,

thanks for all the help though i really appreciate it and understand what you are saying

[zethus909]

Live calls the midi programs folder "Bank 1", and the patches are called programs, so in zebra, i have directly in midi programs folders 001kick03 patch, and Live would read this as Bank1, Program 1

but zebra reads it as "Bank" "0", and the patch is the program

sorry if that caused confusion

[Erkenfresh]

I may be able to help as I have just messed with banks/programs this last weekend. First, and most importantly, you MUST reboot your host software if you make any changes to the MIDI Program directory structure. Zebra will cache all the patches when your host loads up the first instance of Zebra. If it has already done so, then the only action is to reboot Ableton.

Here's is how I set up my structure, and it seems to work.

MIDI Programs
MIDI Programs/001 - Pads
MIDI Programs/001 - Pads/001 - PadILike.h2p
MIDI Programs/001 - Pads/002 - AnotherPadILike.h2p
MIDI Programs/002 - Leads
MIDI Programs/002 - Leads/001 - AwesomeLead.h2p
MIDI Programs/002 - Leads/002 - AwesomeLead2.h2p

To access the first pad (PadILike), that would be Bank 1, Program 1 in Ableton. The second pad is, Bank 1, Program 2. First lead, Bank 2, Program 1. and so on.

If you follow these instructions, you may still get an off by 1 error. The fix is one of these (probably the second):
1. Create a directory called "000 - ThisDirectorySucks" in the MIDI Programs directory
2. Name your bank directories starting with 002 instead of 001.