Tracktion 7

[Dave Wiz]

Hi guys
In my account it shows my upgrades since 2013.
Feb 2013 I paid $29.99 which was to upgrade to T4 (Now given away free)
Feb 2014 I paid $29.99 to upgrade to T5
Feb 2015 another $30 to upgrade to T6.
I originally started with T1 which I seem to remember being around $50 (Correct me if I'm wrong) and then T2, T3 and T4.
I can't remember the upgrade price for the above but I'm guessing around $30 each time.
Now I joined this forum in 2004 so I think I can call myself a dedicated user by now.
I stuck it out during the Mackie time, put up with its flaws and annoyances and updated as new versions became available, not always because I needed to but I believed in the product, wanted to support its development and that one day it would grow to be the great DAW I expected it to be, (at least in my mind.)
I was happiest back with T2, it was the most stable, came with Final Mix and the other Plug ins that made it a decent package but even though I own a fully licensed copy I can't use it because it died when Mr Storer took Tracktion back from Mackie and it couldn't be used on an updated computer.
Now here I am on the cusp of buying T7. So it's only another $30 to upgrade, it comes with nothing plug in wise except the basics. My original Final Mix is unstable in the current Tracktion versions and it can't be used in another Daw so that's dead and buried.
I was going to download the demo but when I did that with T6 I found the edits I'd opened in T6 wouldn't then open again in T5 so I had to upgrade, Ok I was narked to find that out but it wasn't as though I wasn't going to get T6 at some point anyway.
If I upgrade to T7 it means in total it will have cost me maybe $200 in upgrades but as a new user I can get it for only $60.
So as a dedicated user I've paid almost three times more than someone who has just discovered Tracktion would pay including plug ins that I can't use anymore.
It's people like me and you who have submitted our bug reports over the years, made suggestions as to how we want to see Trackion grow, helped iron out the wrinkles and bugs and we pay more than Joe Newmusician who's discovered Tracktion for the first time.
Am I the only one who gets frustrated over the fact there is no proper manual? Not because I need it particularly. It's something I come to expect when you buy a piece of software and not including one seems lazy and inconsiderate. Is there one in T7 or do we rely on Bill again.
The only software where you have to buy the manual separately.
I remember when ghost notes in the piano roll was announced. Tracktions idea of ghost notes? That's a joke for a start.
Someone called it the Easyjet of Music software in a post a while ago and as amusing as that sounds I do feel there is an element of truth to it.
I realise tracktion isn't an expensive DAW but I can't understand why they're throwing their weight behind this copper reference thing.
Why go from producing a budget priced DAW (and not a particularly stable one at that) to start developing a mega expensive high end reference interface that 99% of T users will never buy?
As an aside it was through watching Bills Tracktion videos on Youtube I found his others on Studio One and downloaded the demo and eventually bought the producer package (£300 and a £100 Faderport) Never have I been so happy, it's rock solid, never poofs or falls over and comes with good quality synths and effects and a ton of downloadable content.
I'm going to wait a long while before I upgrade again with Tracktion.
Fruity Loop Studio users get free upgrades for life.
My Renoise3 license entitles me to free upgrades right up until version 4 which is a long way off.
If anything I think TSC should be grateful to those of us who have stuck it out to the point that they reached a version 7 and be giving us T7, not charging $30 for another years use before they announce something bigger and better.
Am I alone on this. I'm sure I can't be the only one who feels this way?

Dave

[jabe]

Copper Reference: I don't expect TSC to survive or even make much money out of selling copies of the DAW for $60 or $30 a time. A bigger company with more products may well be the difference between it surviving or not surviving and I want it to survive. I don't want another Mackie-type ice age where nothing happens. Okay, so they've come out with Biotek and the Copper Reference thing. So what? Some will buy them, some won't. It's designed now, so it just needs selling. More money coming in means more staff can be taken on to help fix problems and help future development. As for the emotive "throwing their weight behind" Copper Reference, I see no sign of this. The developers are still developing. There may be future spin-offs, future less expensive interfaces. What a feather in the TSC cap it would be for Copper Reference to become a standard in professional studios due to being the best around.

FL Studio users get free upgrades, do they. What about Cubase, Pro Tools, Logic, etc, etc, users? I'm quite happy for my paltry $30 a year to help keep things going.

The manual is what it is. If they'd got someone in to write it and given it away as part of the package, we wouldn't be paying $30 and $60 for upgrades and new licences.

So new users pay $60. In five years' time they too will have paid more than $200 and they'll still have a supported DAW and it'll be more supported by more new users coming along and paying more than $200 for their next five years' use. And I'll still have a supported DAW, unlike all those years with Mackie, and won't have had to go try out dozens of others to find one I like as much.

After five or ten or more years using VST-enabled DAWs most of us have most of the plug-ins we need. I don't want to be sold a new DAW where I'm paying more for plug-ins than for the DAW.

But, you know, each to their own and all that.

[pquenin]

30$ for an major upgrade is cheap. See the pricing of each upadates of Reason, Cubase, and the like : more than 100$...
And what you pay is the right to use it, so I don't understand that you complain about having paid more than a new user...

[whyterabbyt]

If I upgrade to T7 it means in total it will have cost me maybe $200 in upgrades but as a new user I can get it for only $60.
.
.
So as a dedicated user I've paid almost three times more than someone who has just discovered Tracktion .

Pity that you werent dedicated enough to use it three times more than someone who's just bought it has, then.

I think TSC should be grateful to those of us who have stuck it out to the point that they reached a version 7 and be giving us T7, not charging $30 for another years use before they announce something bigger and better.

So dont upgrade. After all, your hobby obviously isnt important enough for an investment of a whole 9 cents a day.
Or the incredibly exploitative 5 cents a day or so its cost you already. That must almost be the cost of a beer every three months, I can see how that would bite into one's finances.

Am I alone on this. I'm sure I can't be the only one who feels this way?

No, there are probably one or two other folk out there who have had twelve or so years use of the software but still think that no-one on this planet is entitled to wind up paying less than them under any circumstances whatsoever.

[pough]

So as a dedicated user I've paid almost three times more than someone who has just discovered Tracktion would pay including plug ins that I can't use anymore.

You've also used it for many years longer than someone who's just starting. Had they started back then then would have paid just as much as you to stay current. It's a similar deal for most software that you purchase. Tracktion does suffer historically from the Mackie hell-hole, but it also has some previous versions still available - including a free one. While it doesn't benefit me directly I do like that I can recommend it to friends.

Why go from producing a budget priced DAW (and not a particularly stable one at that) to start developing a mega expensive high end reference interface that 99% of T users will never buy?

TSC is making a high-end interface for the same reason Julian first made Tracktion: they want to. As a small software team they can't really go toe-to-toe with the big DAWs. As a small hardware developer they can't really go toe-to-toe with the big manufacturers. They're exploring smaller niches while doing work they can be passionate about.

[PapaLazarou]

Anyone who's regularly updated say MS Office or Photoshop will have spent a lot more over the years than someone who's just taken out an Office 365 or Creative Cloud subscription today. Just the way it is. Note both of these large players are doing their best to move over to subscription models from one off purchase models, and you're probably going to see more of that going forward. Makes for much more predictable and steady cash flow, I guess.

I agree with your comments on lack of manual, but to be fair the video's are very useful. To be honest as a newbie I've found Tracktion very easy and natural to use compared to some of the other stuff I've tried (I also have Ableton, which takes some getting use to, and am doing a trial of Cubase, the latter of which comes with a near 700 page manual!). Stability is also something that could be improved for sure.

[clintmartin]

$30 is a steal for an upgrade.

[Ben di Arrows]

The cost of upgrading to me is 50p a week. Not bad.

It seems some have lost sight of the relationship. Companies produce the products they want and offer them for sale in the hope of recouping the development costs.

We choose to buy them or not,
The price we pay lets us use the software indefinitely (Mackie's server fiasco aside).
Upgrades are offered, we choose again.

TSC invite feature requests but don't work for us.
I might be prepared to work for you, but I'm a lousy, expensive programmer and you will burn a lot of money and have no usable product for the foreseeable future.

So my feature request is native bridging for 32/64 bit plugins.
Please.
I acknowledge TCS's right to ignore me.

I could always buy Reaper, but it's pants.

[Dave Wiz]

Well I'm sorry if my opinion rubbed the fanboys up the wrong way but it's my opinion and I'm entitled to voice it.
Whyterabbyt, What does "Pity that you weren't dedicated enough to use it three times more than someone who's just bought it has, then." mean?
I thought this was an adult forum so I don't understand your stupid schoolboy logic or your extremely sarcastic tone towards someone you don't even know.
I've been a user since 2004 or did you not bother to read in full before foaming at the keyboard for the 23,568th time.
Do you just like to upset people while hiding behind your keyboard?

Your reply to lay-it about his typing was rude and inappropriate. I bet you wouldn't have the balls to say it to his face.
What if the guy has learning difficulties. I'm sure your comment will make him feel so much better about himself.
Learn some tolerance. We can't all be perfect like you.

[pough]

Well I'm sorry if my opinion rubbed the fanboys up the wrong way

Apology accepted.

but it's my opinion and I'm entitled to voice it.

And everyone else is just as entitled as you to express their opinions. If you can feel free to demean everyone who expresses disagreement as mere fanboys (not exactly a complimentary term) I don't really think you're taking the high road here. You can have your opinion. We're under no obligation to agree with it.

whyterabbyt's point was that unless you hadn't bothered to use Tracktion for all the years you'd had it then you have received more value from it than someone who has just started and paid less.

By the way, I'm content to not have a manual if it keeps the cost of Tracktion down and the updates faster. I don't often consult manuals, and more often than not even when I do it's a waste of time. I'm thinking of FL Studio in particular, here. I do love their lifetime upgrades but their manual sucks. I've found that you need to know the answer to your question to be able to find the answer to your question.

[Robert Randolph]

I've found that you need to know the answer to your question to be able to find the answer to your question.

That is a great point, and why I hate when people say RTFM in response to questions.

HOWEVER, A manual is useful for those of us that like to read through it totally to get a mental map of things.

[chico.co.uk]

I gave up when it got to the bit about "as a dedicated user I've paid $200 to upgrade to T7 when a new user can get it for $60" because I could spot the difference between trying T7 for the first time, and being licensed to use T2, T3, T4, T5, T6 and T7 over the course of ten years.

If you think software companies employ devs, marketing folk, designers, pay for booths and accommodation at NAMM, etc, and all that stuff comes free, so why not give the product away free too... well.... *sigh*

If I was ridiculously happy using Studio One, and had never been happier, using it, I would just f**k off and use Studio One instead of hang wringing over a ten year old mastering plugin that's owned by a different software company, and has been explained to be eol over and over again. Because I'm apparently really happy with Studio One.

[DavidPardy]

I was astounded by the over $200 claim paying for upgrades over several years.

Look at many commercial software package - MS Office, Visual Studio, Photoshop, etc., and you'll be finding MUCH higher prices, and quite often a complete absence of any discounted upgrade fee.

To be honest, I don't even know why I'm bothering to reply. Dave obviously has his mind made up about how the world should work and nothing we say will change that.

[tovokas]

I spent $150 for Studio One v1, then another $150 for Studio One v2, and they had the temerity to ask me to pay ANOTHER $150 for Studio One v3... ON SALE!?! (Let alone the $600 or so I have invested in Melodyne, or the $1000 I've been forced to pay for SampleTank upgrades and libraries! For PLUGINS!)



All of us have to make decisions about what apps works best for what we're trying to accomplish, and what constitutes a good value. There are very few companies that can afford to give away major version upgrades for free. I'm guessing in the eyes of most here, $30 is a terrific bargain, and the idea that we're being taken advantage of is absurd. We want Tracktion to evolve and get better, and that involves supporting the developers who make that happen. If that means we're 'fanboys', so be it.

[mcnelson]

I was happiest back with T2, it was the most stable, came with Final Mix and the other Plug ins that made it a decent package but even though I own a fully licensed copy I can't use it because it died when Mr Storer took Tracktion back from Mackie and it couldn't be used on an updated computer.

My memory isn't what it used to be, but were the Mackie activation servers still working when TSC formed? Was it a consequence of TSC being formed that the activation servers went offline? I thought Mackie retained responsibility for T1-T3 and TSC for T4 onwards?

The only software where you have to buy the manual separately.

Bills manual is a third party effort, not related to (but sanctioned by) TSC.

Someone called it the Easyjet of Music software in a post a while ago and as amusing as that sounds I do feel there is an element of truth to it.

Maybe, but at least it's not Ryanair; you'd get charged for using third party plugins then