Rhino Vs Sytrus

[tony tony chopper]

I started the Sytrus UI in a 800x600 res (and at that time, I wouldn't have considered any plugin that didn't fit my screen, it's the case for FM7 and Rhino, and I couldn't understand people were doing such oversized UI's).
I finished it on my 1280x1024 LCD, and I still find it perfect.

If you want to argue, Sytrus is smaller, but has a bigger envelope editor, and it also gets an extra accuracy since the lines are antialiased. Knobs on the Sytrus matrix are bigger than in Rhino.

If you want to argue even more, I'll tell you why the 'additive' part of Sytrus is smaller: don't be fooled, neither Sytrus nor Rhino are real additive synthesizers. That additive part is just a shape building tool. This is no realtime additive synthesis like cameleon for ex. This is just a shape building tool and shouldn't be preferred over other shape building tools, especially the higher harmonics should be avoided.
If that part in Sytrus was a real additive synth, believe me I'd make it more obvious. But believe me, it'd also eat MUCH more CPU.

[fleetmouse]

The Sytrus GUI is scientifically, objectively, factually and substantially too small. I tried running it in 800x600 on a 19" monitor and it still made me squint. The lettering on the vol - lfo - pitch sliders on the main page is one pixel thick! I mean, the space in the "o" is one pixel wide. WRONG. BAD. (edited to add - ) It might be better if there were more contrast between the lettering and the background!

It's a shame that the ImageLine folks get so crabby and defensive rather than listening to legitimate criticisms and responding to them. Granted I appreciate that doing technical support exposes you to an indecent number of slackjawed knuckledragging morons, but you have to learn to tune them out and yet still recognize when legitimate issues are raised.

FWIW I think they're both great sounding synths but if you compare the attitude of the developers it's like night and day.

[tony tony chopper]

It's a shame that the ImageLine folks get so crabby and defensive rather than listening to legitimate criticisms and responding to them

I just think there are 2 schools.

Here we only heard those who like oversized UI's. I'm sure a lot of people don't use FL because it's too small for them, but fortunately a lot do, and like its smaller UI. And Sytrus is in no way smaller than everything else in FL, in which it was made to fit. Sure the additive part is not put in front, but I just explained why.

As for the knobs and sliders, they're like I wanted them. Especially since you can only roughly tell what position a slider is anyway. So give a slider 200 pixels in height, you still won't tell, by looking at it, if it's at position 150 or 151. What matters is the tweaking, and the mouse-to-tweak resolution of the sliders in Sytrus is much bigger than the size of the sliders.
The labels? Who cares, they're just there to make you recognize knobs, not to explain them. It has a built-in hint system so hovering a knob explains it.

[kodama]

I'm not going to be rude about it, but I would not say that my eyes could be persuaded into thinking Sytrus is large enough on my monitor.

Gol, Is it a pain to make Sytrus have a size toggle?

Cater to both schools?

Or at least a compromise school?

One small size, one large?

[fleetmouse]

The labels? Who cares, they're just there to make you recognize knobs, not to explain them. It has a built-in hint system so hovering a knob explains it.

I just read an interview with Neal Pogue who has engineered mixes for the likes of Outkast, and he talked about the importance of color-coding his mixing board so he can tell at a glance what's vocals, bass, percussion etc. even when he's tired.

I tried color coding my tracks in FL for the first time after reading this and noticed a huge difference. It was one less thing to think about.

Now all of this is just to say that ergonomics is important. There has to be a happy balance between ridiculously large space wasting designs and microscopic inscrutable ones.

You designed Sytrus so I have no doubt that you don't have to even glance at the labels. But for us mere mortals who buy and use your products, a well designed "I get it with one glance" gui can be the difference between a long painful learning curve and a short painless one.

Don't rationalize away comments from users because we're the ones paying for your frites and sauce!

[arguru]

Serious question to everyone.

Do u imagine people like Eat Static, Daft Punk, Infected Mushroom, Jamiroquai, etc... (to name a few) asking or discuting with something else wich gear is "better"?

[kodama]

Yep - I think they take dumps too!

[topaz]

JK does (jamiroquai) asks his dealer
what gear is best. sniff sniff.

Serious question to everyone.

Do u imagine people like Eat Static, Daft Punk, Infected Mushroom, Jamiroquai, etc... (to name a few) asking or discuting with something else wich gear is "better"?

[arguru]

lol matt

[topaz]

Mr Zimmer wonders what monitor to install Sytrus onto
not the 44" thats for sure.

[tony tony chopper]

like Midi mapping, more envelope saving

I don't plan MIDI mapping, because to me it's something (good) hosts should do themselves. Well, FL does, and I'm sure Cubase does (or it wouldn't be pro).

But what do you mean by more envelope saving? You can save/restore/copy/paste all of them.

How do you see these prices? I was looking on the Fruitloops.com site & didn't see it

I'm not a marketing guy so I haven't checked recently, but I think the offer still applies: Sytrus is $79 for people who own FL, and can be down to around $40 (or something) in the XXL package (meaning if you buy everything from IL).

It seems more "loose" and less together, on bass especially

it's the special chorus (well, flangus) and the unison, which I'm proud of

You designed Sytrus so I have no doubt that you don't have to even glance at the labels. But for us mere mortals who buy and use your products, a well designed "I get it with one glance" gui can be the difference between a long painful learning curve and a short painless one.

I meant this: take, for ex, the volume attack slider in the main panel. Should it say 'volume attack'? No, it just says 'A'. As in 'ADSR'. You can look at it and not know what the A means of course, but then, the slider's hint says 'volume attack'. From now, you know, and you'll recognize that know as the 'A' knob. I usually use 3 letters for all my knobs, it doesn't need to explain the knob, just differenciate it.

Now all of this is just to say that ergonomics is important.

ergonomy is extremely important to me, it's just that we don't have the same concept of it. Your ideal UI isn't mine. And as in 'I'm unique, like everyone', when you like something, there are other people who do as well. I can't be the only one against oversized UI's.
Some people even LIKE those knobs you have to circle your mouse around for tweaking, go argue with that.

Gol, Is it a pain to make Sytrus have a size toggle?

yes, it took me A LOT of time to draw it

especially since everything is designed around the envelope editor's size, well aligned for an accurate grid-drawing (check the keyboard mapping section)

because we're the ones paying for your frites and sauce!

fries are free in belgium, didn't you know? they grow everywhere

[fleetmouse]

it makes the gui bigger or else it gets the hose again

[kodama]

like Midi mapping, more envelope saving
I don't plan MIDI mapping, because to me it's something (good) hosts should do themselves. Well, FL does, and I'm sure Cubase does (or it wouldn't be pro).

Well I use Live and that totally sucks because you can assign Midi controllers, but they are deleted everytime you reload or replace the VST.

If you make a new instance, it will not have the mappings, and if you go to add them, Live will make you delete the mappings on the first instance.

Very important feature!

But what do you mean by more envelope saving? You can save/restore/copy/paste all of them.

Missed that, sorry!

It seems more "loose" and less together, on bass especially
it's the special chorus (well, flangus) and the unison, which I'm proud of

As you should be, but even the raw sound is really awesome to me!

Gol, Is it a pain to make Sytrus have a size toggle?

yes, it took me A LOT of time to draw it

especially since everything is designed around the envelope editor's size, well aligned for an accurate grid-drawing (check the keyboard mapping section)

Bummer!

Well, it sounds like none of these things will be changing in Sytrus, so I will just have to take your answers under consideration.

One last thing about Sytrus - have you noticed how velocity is always set to volume, until you go to each operator and set it to have reverse velocity response curve, and even then there seems to be a little...

It's like there's a global default velocity volume repsonse that is preset and cannot be adjusted...

[tony tony chopper]

It's like there's a global default velocity volume repsonse that is preset and cannot be adjusted...

yes of course. Well it's how I see a synth: a built-in velocity curve, and you can still 'counter' it using vel mapping. But do you want to change the curve or disable the velocity response? Again it's more something hosts do by themselves.

Well I use Live and that totally sucks because you can assign Midi controllers, but they are deleted everytime you reload or replace the VST.

depend how many controls you want to tweak live. Sytrus is more made for 2 modulation parameters, and in the VSTi they're linked to modulation and breathe CC's. It's enough to morph a sound in 2D.

[kodama]

I have a MicroKontrol and I tend to set up a params that are favorites to edit in my synths.

So it's mostly everyday coffee shop programming.