Hey folks,
Does anyone know of a way to remove the 'noise' based elements from a signal and leave only the tonal/harmonic elements using Melda plugs? I'm not talking about noise reduction, which is purely amplitude based, but noise vs tone, which has pitch detection and detection of 'held' notes to determin what is 'signal' and what is 'noise'. I've tried using spectral dynamics but haven't managed to get good results as it's based purely on amplitude.
This sort of thing is usually best done with spectral based effects where the process can detect what is a harmonic/extended tone. The best examples of this are iZotope RX's 'deconstruct' module, examples here:
and Sp3ctr3's 'Harmonic' knob... which is sadly no longer available (although it was free so you may be able to find it online somewhere) but you can hear here (jump to 50 secs, the below doesn't support seeking):
Obviously there's restoration use here, but my main interest comes from a sound design perspective, where you can remove the noise elements of sounds that have a musical 'feel' but are too noisy to use in a harmonical/tonal fashion. Also, making monster noises, where a lot of noise can build up making the signal harder to work with.
What prompted this post was people posting excellent examples of MUnison. I've tried using it a lot, but it works much better with tonal material, which makes me sad. It is not very useful for me as I work as a sound designer, where most sounds are NOT tonal, so I'd like to be able to balance sounds between the two.
Thanks!
Tonal vs Noise
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- KVRian
- 1094 posts since 23 Sep, 2006
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- KVRAF
- 10366 posts since 2 Sep, 2003 from Surrey, UK
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MeldaProduction MeldaProduction https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=176122 - KVRAF
- 14325 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic
Well, try MTransformer and MCharacter. They don't do exactly what you asked for, but should bring a lot of potential.
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- KVRAF
- 2690 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
I didn't find time to perfect it, but it is an interesting idea to start from. Have a play around and tell me what you think. I have created a custom shaped threshold in SpectralDynamics that allows all note pitches to pass through the compressor and the inbetween notes to be compressed.
There is a Synth with LOTS of noise and a sine wave, play on the keyboard and you will hear it almost sounds clean, then bypass both spectral dynamics to hear the original level of noise.
There is a Synth with LOTS of noise and a sine wave, play on the keyboard and you will hear it almost sounds clean, then bypass both spectral dynamics to hear the original level of noise.
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 @ Melda Production
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1094 posts since 23 Sep, 2006
That's an awesome effort, thanks for giving it a go! It's not quite what I was looking for, but it is interesting and your approach inspired me to try it a different way.... by using the triangle curve tension to create hundreds of threshold analysis points. The below image shows 6 points with 64 triangles (64 is the max).. so 384 individual frequency bands. Of course I can add more points easily. By increasing the release and peak hold times you can tailor the sound. Again, not exactly what I was looking for because I was hoping for an algorthm that can analyse the difference between noise and tones... but this sort of hacks its way there!jmg8 wrote:I didn't find time to perfect it, but it is an interesting idea to start from. Have a play around and tell me what you think. I have created a custom shaped threshold in SpectralDynamics that allows all note pitches to pass through the compressor and the inbetween notes to be compressed.
There is a Synth with LOTS of noise and a sine wave, play on the keyboard and you will hear it almost sounds clean, then bypass both spectral dynamics to hear the original level of noise.
Thanks for the inspiration! I'll post something later in here if I make anything work sharing!
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- KVRAF
- 2690 posts since 9 Jul, 2015 from UK
Are those lined up with note frequencies? Example 440hz for A.
I figured to extract tonal, we would need to allow only those frequencies to pass?
Glad you liked my attempt, thanks.
I figured to extract tonal, we would need to allow only those frequencies to pass?
Glad you liked my attempt, thanks.
Jason @ Melda Production
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1094 posts since 23 Sep, 2006
Yeah, that's a good question and I guess it depends on what you want out of it. In my case I dont care whether it fits within standard note frequencies... i just want to pull out held notes and ignore the rest so I dont need it lined up to 'real' notes at all. With enough granularity it probably doesn't matter if you've lined them up though.
In the perfect world it would be aware and search out harmonics, in the case of the processes we've made they're kind of 'dumb' in that they're purely amplitude based on a per 'slice' basis (i'm going to call them slices). But, wow, spectral dynamics is just so flexible you can mess with various settings so much you can get pretty useful/interesting material by just fiddling with things like hold, release modes, smoothness and naturality. I'm still learning cool uses with that thing after a few years!
I'd love for Vojtech to think up novel uses for the awesome melda spectral algorithm, but i guess he has a lot on his plate.
Thanks again for the help!
In the perfect world it would be aware and search out harmonics, in the case of the processes we've made they're kind of 'dumb' in that they're purely amplitude based on a per 'slice' basis (i'm going to call them slices). But, wow, spectral dynamics is just so flexible you can mess with various settings so much you can get pretty useful/interesting material by just fiddling with things like hold, release modes, smoothness and naturality. I'm still learning cool uses with that thing after a few years!
I'd love for Vojtech to think up novel uses for the awesome melda spectral algorithm, but i guess he has a lot on his plate.
Thanks again for the help!
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- KVRist
- 377 posts since 19 Jul, 2013 from Chile
+1
Allow me to add some ideas:
Seems relevant to answer what constitutes a "held note". For this, the ability of the algorithm to detect formant relationships appears as central plus the amplitude criteria needs to be there since theoretically white noise could include all formants. A solution could be to instruct the algo to search for in ex. the 10 highest amplitude detected formants, and then the 20th, etc. Complexity arises because those relationships keep varying in time, for instance the way piano's higher notes are not rigid % copies of the lower ones.
Furthermore as many noises are far from random, it would be more useful to be able to detect and organize 'patterns" (instead of solely harmonic relationships) present in the sound, inex. percussive, waveshape-related at different pitch. Then have the software present you the patterns and hopefully allow you to edit/operate those.
This is what Sony Creative's Spectralayers strive for. However the ability to discern into the different kinds of relationships of those patterns is the area that needs more development. Celemony's Melodyne is the king out there detecting and classifying harmonic content, and just released version 4 has improved manyfold its ability to interact with formants. Both softwares are expensive, the former has a steep learning curve, and they have not really solved the pattern discerning wide needs.
Here is a typical example of the unsolved problem of these softwares
Listen to the extracted vocals 2:08 to 2:10, the somewhat successfully extracted vocals are still mixed with the keys that share similar spectrum.
///Obviously this is a huge problem to tackle, however an incremental -perhaps modular- approach, in which the user could define levels of complexity (something like moving averages), could contribute to reduce or to encircle the problematic sounds, and then start again.
Since patterns could vary wildly, pose very different case to case alternatives, user presets could end being important, if allowed.
And I am loving this group thinking/proposing, that judging from the latest Melda plugin releases, does help.vectorwarrior wrote:I'd love for Vojtech to think up novel uses for the awesome melda spectral algorithm
Allow me to add some ideas:
Seems relevant to answer what constitutes a "held note". For this, the ability of the algorithm to detect formant relationships appears as central plus the amplitude criteria needs to be there since theoretically white noise could include all formants. A solution could be to instruct the algo to search for in ex. the 10 highest amplitude detected formants, and then the 20th, etc. Complexity arises because those relationships keep varying in time, for instance the way piano's higher notes are not rigid % copies of the lower ones.
Furthermore as many noises are far from random, it would be more useful to be able to detect and organize 'patterns" (instead of solely harmonic relationships) present in the sound, inex. percussive, waveshape-related at different pitch. Then have the software present you the patterns and hopefully allow you to edit/operate those.
This is what Sony Creative's Spectralayers strive for. However the ability to discern into the different kinds of relationships of those patterns is the area that needs more development. Celemony's Melodyne is the king out there detecting and classifying harmonic content, and just released version 4 has improved manyfold its ability to interact with formants. Both softwares are expensive, the former has a steep learning curve, and they have not really solved the pattern discerning wide needs.
Here is a typical example of the unsolved problem of these softwares
Listen to the extracted vocals 2:08 to 2:10, the somewhat successfully extracted vocals are still mixed with the keys that share similar spectrum.
///Obviously this is a huge problem to tackle, however an incremental -perhaps modular- approach, in which the user could define levels of complexity (something like moving averages), could contribute to reduce or to encircle the problematic sounds, and then start again.
Since patterns could vary wildly, pose very different case to case alternatives, user presets could end being important, if allowed.
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MeldaProduction MeldaProduction https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=176122
- KVRAF
- 14325 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic
Hehe basically, I believe it actually cannot be done. There are some methods being invented, but it's far from being usable imho. In the video I'd say it really sucks big time 
, sorry. Anyways there's really way too much stuff on the plate, which is way more interesting, sorry.
, sorry. Anyways there's really way too much stuff on the plate, which is way more interesting, sorry.-
- KVRist
- 495 posts since 18 Aug, 2006 from Italy
Separating the harmonic (tonal) and inharmonic (noise) part of a sound is a very interesting and useful process in creative work, and also in audio restoration. I used to believe that only a few expensive softwares were able to do that, like the Alchemy synthesizer (after importing a sample into it) and moreover IRCAM TS, here:
http://www.plugivery.com/products/p1680-TS/
but I recently found a very good set of freeware plug-ins called Pitch Tech that does this very well:
http://www.pitchtech.ch/Plugins/
Their limitations are that they are not 64 bits (they work only in 32 bits hosts), they are only in VST or LADSPA format, they need Java Runtime (JRE) to be installed, and they work better offline than in realtime.
I, too, would really like very much if MeldaProduction develops something of this kind, perhaps in 64 bits, in realtime, also in the AU format and with no need to rely upon Java…
http://www.plugivery.com/products/p1680-TS/
but I recently found a very good set of freeware plug-ins called Pitch Tech that does this very well:
http://www.pitchtech.ch/Plugins/
Their limitations are that they are not 64 bits (they work only in 32 bits hosts), they are only in VST or LADSPA format, they need Java Runtime (JRE) to be installed, and they work better offline than in realtime.
I, too, would really like very much if MeldaProduction develops something of this kind, perhaps in 64 bits, in realtime, also in the AU format and with no need to rely upon Java…
Last edited by XComposer on Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRian
- Topic Starter
- 1094 posts since 23 Sep, 2006
I hadn't seen that pitchtech stuff before, super interesting! Unfortunately jbridge crashes when trying to convert them so I have no way to try them out as everything I own is 64 bit now 
Ah, i would have loved to mess around with them. Dang it
Ah, i would have loved to mess around with them. Dang it -
- KVRist
- 495 posts since 18 Aug, 2006 from Italy
I use them on the free 32-bits version of the MULAB DAW, try it, it works:
http://www.mutools.com/mulab-product.html
http://www.mutools.com/mulab-product.html
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- KVRist
- 377 posts since 19 Jul, 2013 from Chile
IRCAM's TS had an introductory price of $99 for ages (till VST compliance was released) since it originally came in AU. It is 64 bits. Last BF/CM was briefly reduced again to $99.XComposer wrote:Separating the harmonic (tonal) and inharmonic (noise) part of a sound is a very interesting and useful process in creative work, and also in audio restoration. I used to believe that only a few expensive softwares were able to do that,(...) IRCAM TS, here:
http://www.plugivery.com/products/p1680-TS/
(...)
Their limitations are that they are not 64 bits (they work only in 32 bits hosts), they are only in VST or LADSPA format, they need Java Runtime (JRE) to be installed, and they work better offline than in realtime.
I, too, would really like very much if MeldaProduction develops something of this kind, perhaps in 64 bits, in realtime, also in the AU format and with no need to relay on Java…
About "undoable"... today's spectral tools, inex. what Melodyne or RX do, and probably MXXX feats too, were considered such not long ago.
I would say that after RX's v4 &5 and Melodyne's version 4 release, several developers teams are right now working on it, and getting us there by incremental steps; de-reverb module, deconstruct one, etc together with presenting us customers with an evolving workflow that via easy batch processing and simplification of complex tasks is actually allowing the completion of only dreamed tasks -again- just a few years ago.
Nowadays I am less and less inclined to catch me saying undoable at many regards... particularly those I want to achieve
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- KVRist
- 495 posts since 18 Aug, 2006 from Italy
I did not know about the introductory price of TS, nor about the fact that it was not originally only a standalone application as it is now; it seems that I knew about its existence too late…
And yes, while TS is 64-bits, I was just making reference to the PitchTech plug-ins only, saying that PitchTech is not 64-bits, nor AU, regrettably. They are really interesting!
I absolutely agree that, nowadays, many things are increasingly possible that, just a few years ago, were considered almost as science fiction… You're right. It's impressive.
And yes, while TS is 64-bits, I was just making reference to the PitchTech plug-ins only, saying that PitchTech is not 64-bits, nor AU, regrettably. They are really interesting!
I absolutely agree that, nowadays, many things are increasingly possible that, just a few years ago, were considered almost as science fiction… You're right. It's impressive.
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- KVRian
- 539 posts since 25 Aug, 2006
Wow, what an inspiring Topic! Thanks! PitchTech is really unbelievable stuff...
btw ... using Reaper 32 on a 64 bit system...
... crazy, just isolated Drums in a ccomplete mix... can't believe it...
btw ... using Reaper 32 on a 64 bit system...
... crazy, just isolated Drums in a ccomplete mix... can't believe it...