You can already do this - just right click on the scale and the tuning on/off controls and choose lock.marvotron wrote:One feature related to this that I really feel is missing is to lock the currently selected tuning when changing patches. iirc Alchemy does this, so once you've chosen a scale your free to browse around and not have to keep reselecting the tuning file.
Microtuning: Which tables do we "need"?
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- KVRian
- 833 posts since 29 Jul, 2006
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- KVRian
- 540 posts since 7 Jul, 2004 from Skopje
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- KVRAF
- 2253 posts since 10 Apr, 2002 from Saint Germain en Laye, France
thanks Phil !
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- KVRist
- 228 posts since 26 Sep, 2013
I realised, after doing some more research, why equal temperament is so important. It's the ideal solution for complex compositions. You can modulate in any key and the result is still consonant in an acceptable, even pleasing way.
Now there are temperaments or scales that are much more limited, many cannot be modulated at will. This goes back centuries ago where complex compositions, keyboards (clavier), and orchestras didn't exist. In that time, simple melodies without modulation/transposing were all that could be expressed in music, and it was good enough. For tonality, actually better than today's equal temperament, because the harmonies of a chord lined up perfectly.
Which scales do we need? What I learned is that scale, instruments, composition, must go hand in hand. You cannot apply a random scale to any composition. The problem with instrument tuning can be solved with synthesisers, but that's not the point, it's only one problem less. If you select a specific scale, you also have to compose for that scale. For example, you have to avoid certain notes inside your selected scale. And in some (or most) cases avoid certain chords. And root notes/chord progressions. These are very rigid limitations. On the other hand this can be used to your advantage if you compose and use instruments/tunings that fit to that scale.
In 12-ET you only have one pure harmony, the octace. No pure thirds, no pure fifths, no pure non-octave intervals at all. ET gives you a lot of advantages, but you must sacrifice pure harmonics. With ET you're save. You don't have to worry about anything, that's why it is so convenient, why it has replaced all other scales in the western world.
If you want to have pure harmonics, it gets difficult. Although not necessarily difficult if you stay in the key you started with. This is something I'm going to research more, spend much more time as I already did.
An interesting detail I was watching lately is this:
With simple sawtooth notes I found the pure intervals more pleasant. But when chorus and reverb was added at the end of the video, it was clear that the tempered (ET) intervals sounded more pleasant. Much 'colouring', so many interferences. Which may explain why many people like to add delay/reverb effects to the mix. Is it because they instinctivly mask their unpure harmonies without knowing why? Actually, ET includes some kind of chorus/reverb effect, simply by tuning. Whether this is good or bad is again not the point, it's just there at our disposition.
Studying pure tone (just intonation), mean tone, well tempered, and finally equal temperament, is certainly worth the effort. And I might add, this is only basic stuff. For advanced musicians/composers simply boring to read, but for beginners like me quite revealing and important
Now there are temperaments or scales that are much more limited, many cannot be modulated at will. This goes back centuries ago where complex compositions, keyboards (clavier), and orchestras didn't exist. In that time, simple melodies without modulation/transposing were all that could be expressed in music, and it was good enough. For tonality, actually better than today's equal temperament, because the harmonies of a chord lined up perfectly.
Which scales do we need? What I learned is that scale, instruments, composition, must go hand in hand. You cannot apply a random scale to any composition. The problem with instrument tuning can be solved with synthesisers, but that's not the point, it's only one problem less. If you select a specific scale, you also have to compose for that scale. For example, you have to avoid certain notes inside your selected scale. And in some (or most) cases avoid certain chords. And root notes/chord progressions. These are very rigid limitations. On the other hand this can be used to your advantage if you compose and use instruments/tunings that fit to that scale.
In 12-ET you only have one pure harmony, the octace. No pure thirds, no pure fifths, no pure non-octave intervals at all. ET gives you a lot of advantages, but you must sacrifice pure harmonics. With ET you're save. You don't have to worry about anything, that's why it is so convenient, why it has replaced all other scales in the western world.
If you want to have pure harmonics, it gets difficult. Although not necessarily difficult if you stay in the key you started with. This is something I'm going to research more, spend much more time as I already did.
An interesting detail I was watching lately is this:
With simple sawtooth notes I found the pure intervals more pleasant. But when chorus and reverb was added at the end of the video, it was clear that the tempered (ET) intervals sounded more pleasant. Much 'colouring', so many interferences. Which may explain why many people like to add delay/reverb effects to the mix. Is it because they instinctivly mask their unpure harmonies without knowing why? Actually, ET includes some kind of chorus/reverb effect, simply by tuning. Whether this is good or bad is again not the point, it's just there at our disposition.
Studying pure tone (just intonation), mean tone, well tempered, and finally equal temperament, is certainly worth the effort. And I might add, this is only basic stuff. For advanced musicians/composers simply boring to read, but for beginners like me quite revealing and important
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- KVRAF
- 4805 posts since 21 Jan, 2008 from oO
not sure, but maybe this could be of any help, regarding conversion or chrecking out scales etc.
http://feelyoursound.com/scale-chords/
http://feelyoursound.com/scale-chords/
JamWide - a cross-platform Ninjam client for DAWs
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4197 posts since 23 May, 2004 from Bad Vilbel, Germany
@Suloo: This thread is actually about microtuning - but thanks anyway!
BTW I've just edited the title, replacing the offending word "scale" with "table".
BTW I've just edited the title, replacing the offending word "scale" with "table".
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- KVRist
- 228 posts since 26 Sep, 2013
after playing with non-12-tone tunings I had to realise that it is next to impossible to use more than one synth, because they all drift apart from each other. You can load the exact same .scl or .tun file into different synths (like Z3TA, Scala Relayer to analogue VCO, Diva, Aalto), they will play different pitches. I'm not sure why.
So back to the question which tables we need, I'm forced to go back to my aforementioned 12-tone scales. Only they provide accurate tuning for soft- and hardware. It's only a technical problem, but very difficult to solve. Bigger divisions of the octave are actually more interesting, but it should be possible to play with this - say - 19-tone scale, write down the frequencies you pick for a piece, and create your own 12-tone scale with these notes.
By the way, if someone knows a discussion group dedicated to old music and tunings, I'm interested.
So back to the question which tables we need, I'm forced to go back to my aforementioned 12-tone scales. Only they provide accurate tuning for soft- and hardware. It's only a technical problem, but very difficult to solve. Bigger divisions of the octave are actually more interesting, but it should be possible to play with this - say - 19-tone scale, write down the frequencies you pick for a piece, and create your own 12-tone scale with these notes.
By the way, if someone knows a discussion group dedicated to old music and tunings, I'm interested.
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- KVRian
- 833 posts since 29 Jul, 2006
Some implementations of .scl and .tun support are a little less than optimum. Aalto doesn't work properly, also it doesn't have a master tuning control (haven't tried it lately, was this addressed in an update?). Synthmaster's .scl support is screwed. I also wasn't able to make Z3TA work properly with scales with more or less than twelve pitches.Phil999 wrote:after playing with non-12-tone tunings I had to realise that it is next to impossible to use more than one synth, because they all drift apart from each other. You can load the exact same .scl or .tun file into different synths (like Z3TA, Scala Relayer to analogue VCO, Diva, Aalto), they will play different pitches. I'm not sure why.
So back to the question which tables we need, I'm forced to go back to my aforementioned 12-tone scales. Only they provide accurate tuning for soft- and hardware. It's only a technical problem, but very difficult to solve. Bigger divisions of the octave are actually more interesting, but it should be possible to play with this - say - 19-tone scale, write down the frequencies you pick for a piece, and create your own 12-tone scale with these notes.
By the way, if someone knows a discussion group dedicated to old music and tunings, I'm interested.
Honestly, I think it's an afterthought for most developers and never gets tested thoroughly.
All the u-he synths that can import .tun work properly.
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- KVRist
- 228 posts since 26 Sep, 2013
that's also my impression.~Pd~ wrote: Honestly, I think it's an afterthought for most developers and never gets tested thoroughly.
By the way (@Urs), the 'Arprestrictor' doesn't give accurate results.
http://www.u-he.net/scripting/Arprestrictor.php
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- KVRian
- 804 posts since 14 Apr, 2019
The huygens link at the end is an explanation of each of scala's 5000 plus tuning temperaments. From it I think... ? that despite having more than 5000 it doesn't have 5 EDO/TET, 6 EDO/TET etc. 5 out of 19 tet isn't 5 edo. I can't find just 5 EDO anywhere. Looking like I'll have to just make it myself. Unless someone knows of some strange other name it's going by? It seems strange that it wouldn't be included.Adrian B wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:05 am Kellner
Werckmeister 3
Kirnberg
Valotti
Pure major
Pure minor
Pythagorean
Mean
12-TET
10-TET
5-TET
Slendro
Pelog
Those are some that I likeAnd thank you
http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/scalesdir.txt
EDO = equal divisions of octave. TET= tone equal temperament