Announcement for programmers...

[optilude]

Since everyone is so far off topic rambling about which language is best, I thought I might as well throw in a plug for Buoy, a better user interface library for Java which my brother is developing:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/buoy/

Cool. To be honest though, I'm not so opposed to the Swing programming model, though the look and feel usually means it's useless for anything other than highly specialised applications where the user's don't care whether it looks different from all their other applications. SWT, on the other hand, which is the UI library developed for and used by Eclipse, holds some real promise.

[haydxn]

i'm really looking forward to a chance to try this out...

i only really use the borland command line compiler tho and anticipate requiring some extras to get it to work. unfortunately i'm not so sure about the interaction between such apps and the windows bits/bobs, as i've never made more than working engines and internal gubbins - i've never tried to make something with a GUI in C++, so i don't know the intricacies of what i'd need to modify...

if anyone knows what i'd need to get to attempt to get JUCE compiling with Borland free Command Line tools, i'd be very happy!?

[Karbon L. Forms]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGH!!!

I don't want to be a programmer anymore!!!!

2004 What the f**ks going on.

Something's gone tits up in me code! (C++) And I can't find it! Was compiling yesterday now I've got about 893626573 errors and they're all daft as a packet!! Undefined shite by the bucketload that I know perfectly well is (or was) defined!!! For example "byte" is undefined but it was OK yesterday AND VS is happy to "go to declaration" and intellisense is finding everything fine.
I had a similar fiasco the other day due to a missing curly. I've been hunting for ages and all curlage seems present and correct.
I'm posting here cos I know gurus are watching this thread. What should I be looking for?
OOH my heads hurting now. Must stop headbutting monitor.

This must have happened to some of you guys?



Man Overboard!

[stefankuhn]

Whoa, Jules, that's awesome!

Bugger, with all these excellent cross-platform GUI / Application frameworks popping up lately, I guess I can trash and burn my plans for Jewel.

Oh well, looks like I need a new hobby...

Best,
Stefan

[valley]

Whoa, Jules, that's awesome!

Bugger, with all these excellent cross-platform GUI / Application frameworks popping up lately, I guess I can trash and burn my plans for Jewel.

Jewel looks awesome so I wouldn't quit just yet.

Oh well, looks like I need a new hobby...

zebra?

[deastman]

Since everyone is so far off topic rambling about which language is best, I thought I might as well throw in a plug for Buoy, a better user interface library for Java which my brother is developing:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/buoy/

Cool. To be honest though, I'm not so opposed to the Swing programming model, though the look and feel usually means it's useless for anything other than highly specialised applications where the user's don't care whether it looks different from all their other applications. SWT, on the other hand, which is the UI library developed for and used by Eclipse, holds some real promise.

You can define any look and feel you want. And Buoy is actually built on top of Swing. His web page has an extensive document which builds a case for using Buoy instead of Swing directly. If nothing else, its an entertaining read

[koolkeys]

Back on topic,

Ok, so pardon me for being a little lazy and not wanting to read all the licenses involved all the way through. But can someone who is a little more familiar with the VST, GPL, Juce, and other licenses tell me what you CAN do with Juce? Can you make VST plug-ins? If so, do they have to be released under open source? Can you charge for anything you make with them? Or do you have to pay Jules to do that for a different license? I'm just a bit confused here. I'm still learning C++ and this has gotten me even more excited about it, but I don't want to do something that would breach one of these licenses. Thanks for any help. Cheers!

Koolkeys

[malamut]

Can you make VST plug-ins? If so, do they have to be released under open source? Can you charge for anything you make with them? Or do you have to pay Jules to do that for a different license?

Ok, I'll try to keep the answers as short as possible.

1) Yes, you can make VST plug-ins with JUCE.
2) Unless you obtain a special license from Jules, you must release them free of charge and as open source (GPL).
3) If you want to publish them under different conditions, you have to
(a) obtain a special license from Jules (Jules may charge you for this if he chooses to do so), and
(b) send Steinberg a signed license agreement (free of charge).

The situation is like that because the GPL (under which JUCE has been released) is a non-exclusive license. That means that Jules keeps his full copyright on JUCE and can give additional rights to anyone as he chooses, and under the conditions which he chooses.

Jules has already given to everyone the additional right to compile and link JUCE with commercial standard components like those which are delivered with Windows and Max OS X, and with the Steinberg SDK. He did so right in this thread. So don't worry about those issues.

As soon as you start charging money for your product, however, Jules might want his share in it. So contact him for the details before making serious plans in that direction.

Hope this helped,
malamut

[Rock Hardbuns]

Are you sure about point no 1 there?

Im sorry if this has been resolved in the thread already, I havent read it all.

The VST SDK license says you can not redistribute the SDK or any part of it outside of a product. How they define product, it doesnt say. But I doubt they mean sourcecode though.

I have'nt dealt alot with the SDK though, maybe you dont need to redistribute any of it?

[Karbon L. Forms]

Can you make VST plugs with JUCE?

Legally: It appears so.

Technically: No bastard knows how. Not even Jules. I asked him.

Anyone figures it out let me know.

[malamut]

Are you sure about point no 1 there?
The VST SDK license says you can not redistribute the SDK or any part of it outside of a product.

Legally , I'm sure of point no 1.

As for the VST SDK license, right, you are not allowed to redistribute it outside of a product. But you don't want to do that anyway. You will want to compile it into your product. People who want to compile your source code will have to get the SDK themselves from Steinberg.

malamut

[valley]

1) Yes, you can make VST plug-ins with JUCE.

That has *not* been ascertained.

(b) send Steinberg a signed license agreement (free of charge).

This is incorrect. You *have* to send Steinberg a signed license agreement to release plugs irrespective of JUCE. You simple cannot release plugins that use the VST SDK without doing so.

Jules has already given to everyone the additional right to compile and link JUCE with commercial standard components like those which are delivered with Windows and Max OS X, and with the Steinberg SDK. He did so right in this thread. So don't worry about those issues.

That is total crap. Jules cannot give anyone rights to someone elses' property. The rights you have regarding windows, mac, steinberg, or any other code are assigned you by the owners, not by third parties.

Jules can give you rights over and above the GPL rewgarding his code, if he so chooses. But using JUCE in a mutual compile situation requires that the license of any other linked compents be compatible with the GPL. Steinberg's license is not, end of story.

[koolkeys]

So Valley, can you NOT make VST's with this? Or only ones that are open source? Or if you pay Jules for the other license, does the VST license prevent you still. I wouldn't think so, but I don't know much about this.

I think tomorrow I will print out the various licenses and read them through. Cheers!

Koolkeys

[koolkeys]

Well, I looked through the VST SDK license, and it doesn't state anywhere at all about restrictions for using it with something like Juce. I read it through twice. Am I missing something, or is there another license?

So this is what I gather. Since the GPU requires that you make the code available to any other party using the software, and the VST SDK is not able to be transferred in ANY way, or even copied, then you can't use this for VST plug-ins.

BUT

If you pay Jules for the software, and he grants it under a different license, one that does not require source sharing, then you can use it for VST plug-ins, because that does not violate anything in the VST license.

What I've just said is gathered from facts, unless I'm missing something here. But I've downloaded and read all license papers involved and found this to be true. Please correct me someone if I'm wrong.

Koolkeys

[Lunch Money]

So this is what I gather. Since the GPU requires that you make the code available to any other party using the software, and the VST SDK is not able to be transferred in ANY way, or even copied, then you can't use this for VST plug-ins.

Just a question from somebody who doesn't know jack--

Forget Juce for a second-- how could anybody EVER make a VST plugin, under this logic? How could Tobybear's Delphi template work?

It seems to me that the use of Juce and the VST SDK are independent issues, and all you have to do is respect each respective agreement in order to use them both -together-.

I really don't know anything, though. Nothing about this subject, for certain-- I'm just confused by some of the statements in the last several pages of the thread.

Greg