Hierarchy

[fluffy_little_something]

Was just reexploring Mulab a bit more and noticed again that apart from the GUI my main problem with it is its hierarchical architecture.

For instance I loaded the Morning pad, sounds nice, but noticed how ugly it simply breaks away at the end of the release phase, so I was wondering where to change that. I click on the arrow in the rack, which opens a small window with just a few knobs, none of which could fix that. So I click on the modular view button, which displays some wired modules and zillions of identical looking knobs at the top, with a scrollbar. There are meta parameters, which I have no idea what they represent. So I click the Pad module, which opens an even bigger modular window. Finally I detect the envelope module, where I can probably fix the issue. But it's not as simple as it looks, 11 env knobs alone...

Can't you take out a few layers there and make it useful to normal humans as well

[Michael L]

make it useful to normal humans

We normal humans find MuLab's hierarchical structure quite useful. The front panels are customizable, and show whatever parameters you want.
You can click the front panel of the Morning Pad as you did, and find four modules: Input, Output, a Small Room (which if you open it is labeled Reverb), and a Pad module. That Pad module has two each of: LFOs, LP filters, Amps, and Oscillators, all going into a Multi-Mode Filter, with an Amp Envelope (note its ADSR icon) off to the side. Those eleven knobs you observed in the Amp Evelope are organised in four columns left to right according to the four ADSR stages.
You were looking to change:

the end of the release phase

The "release phase" is the "R" in ADSR, thus is located in the column at the far right. Those three R knobs are: End Level (in %), Release Time (in seconds) and Release Speed (slower/faster). Try tweaking these knobs of the "release phase" while playing the pad; you will find they give you an amazing amount of control over the ending sound of the pad.

[fluffy_little_something]

Zillion referred to the knobs at the top...

Yes, seems the end level was not set to zero

You might like that complexity, but unless I am a total exception I think a lot of people find it unnecessary and counterproductive.

[pljones]

You have the option not to use it, to customise it to remove it or to use it or to enhance it. Too many options can, indeed, be counter-productive - but generally only if you don't know what those options are for. That they exist means inherently means they're not unnecessary, as they're only there because they provide control over something that can be changed. An unnecessary control would be one that had no effect.

[Michael L]

Try tweaking these knobs

Yes, seems the end level was not set to zero

There you go!
Next, after setting the End Level to your own musical taste you can re-save the Morning Pad with a new name. You can even add the End Level parameter to a custom front panel!
Those are just a few of the many benefits you'll will find of the MuLab hierarchy, once you get to know it. For more details, see:
http://mutools.com/info/docs/mux/mux.html

[fluffy_little_something]

First of all, who needs such parameters? And even if they are added for some exotic uses, why does that require 4 levels of hierarchy? Two would be enough. One general and one detailed.

[Michael L]

who needs such parameters

Well, obviously YOU needed the End Level parameter for

some exotic uses

such as changing the End Level to suit your own taste!
Your questions suggest that you did not read the MuTools docs I recommended in my previous post. I am sure you can answer your own questions, if you take a few minutes to read them.
And don't forget Wikipedia!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesiz ... 9_envelope

[MuTools]

Was just reexploring Mulab a bit more and noticed again that apart from the GUI my main problem with it is

What's wrong with the UI?

its hierarchical architecture.

Oops, then MuLab indeed is not for you.
The modular aspect of MuLab is an essential aspect of MuLab.
That said i also invest great effort to also have a sweet layer in between that hides the MUX modular side while still taking advantage of it. That layer is the MUX front panels.

For instance I loaded the Morning pad, sounds nice, but noticed how ugly it simply breaks away at the end of the release phase

I agree it has a little sonic mismatch. I've finetuned that patch, and also added attack and release parameters on the front panel. That's in the next package. Thx for reporting this.

Can't you take out a few layers there and make it useful to normal humans as well

The modular architecture is quite fine, imho. I understand though that it may be (too) daunting for less technical users. That's why the front panels are there.

Anyway it's a continuous challenge to further easify MuLab for less-tech users while preserving and even extending the deep modular power for the also tech users. That's why, when developing M7, i invested serious r&d time in eg smoothing the audio tracking workflow ie recording, playback, editing audio tracks, which was too modular in M6, now in M7 it's quick and easy to record audio tracks in the traditional DAW way. While all modular recording power has been preserved and is at your fingertips for whenever you want/need it.

[fluffy_little_something]

who needs such parameters

Well, obviously YOU needed the End Level parameter for

some exotic uses

such as changing the End Level to suit your own taste!
Your questions suggest that you did not read the MuTools docs I recommended in my previous post. I am sure you can answer your own questions, if you take a few minutes to read them.
And don't forget Wikipedia!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesiz ... 9_envelope

That's the point, I do not need such exotic envelope controls as such. I only needed it in this case because it was there in the first place. If it had not been there to begin with, it could not have been set wrongly. No regular 4- or 5-control envelope ends abruptly like that. Even envelopes with slope controls don't end that way.

[fluffy_little_something]

Was just reexploring Mulab a bit more and noticed again that apart from the GUI my main problem with it is

What's wrong with the UI?

its hierarchical architecture.

Oops, then MuLab indeed is not for you.
The modular aspect of MuLab is an essential aspect of MuLab.
That said i also invest great effort to also have a sweet layer in between that hides the MUX modular side while still taking advantage of it. That layer is the MUX front panels.

For instance I loaded the Morning pad, sounds nice, but noticed how ugly it simply breaks away at the end of the release phase

I agree it has a little sonic mismatch. I've finetuned that patch, and also added attack and release parameters on the front panel. That's in the next package. Thx for reporting this.

Can't you take out a few layers there and make it useful to normal humans as well

The modular architecture is quite fine, imho. I understand though that it may be (too) daunting for less technical users. That's why the front panels are there.

Anyway it's a continuous challenge to further easify MuLab for less-tech users while preserving and even extending the deep modular power for the also tech users. That's why, when developing M7, i invested serious r&d time in eg smoothing the audio tracking workflow ie recording, playback, editing audio tracks, which was too modular in M6, now in M7 it's quick and easy to record audio tracks in the traditional DAW way. While all modular recording power has been preserved and is at your fingertips for whenever you want/need it.

To me personally the GUI just doesn't appeal. I downloaded the demo of Lumit yesterday, that is the exact opposite of Mulab, intuitive, friendly and welcoming, color-coded, ergonomic, made for people with a visual mind. Of course it is a new DAW, so there are still some things to be fixed and improved, but the overall concept and design is just much more appealing in my view. Sorry to say it so directly. I think it helps that it was designed mainly for tablets and other touch screens, so ergonomics was key, and that also pays off on conventional monitors. The price is quite high, unfortunately. 150 bucks, and upgrading to subsequent main version numbers is not free, either, should they survive that long

Mulab was my second DAW (my first was FL, which I disliked so much that for some time I dropped music altogether), someone had recommended Mulab to me and back then I thought it was cool to have everything in one program. Only later did I find out that using external plugins was much more natural and intuitive for me, so after some time I was basically only using the mere Midi sequencer part of Mulab anymore. But that is not really better in Mulab than in other DAW's, to be honest. For instance, I was just trying to draw custom pitch bend curves, that doesn't work well at all in Mulab, nor in other DAW's unfortunately. Those are the basic things I need in a DAW, but they are either missing or poorly implemented, while there are so many things hardly anyone ever needs.
For a long time there were also frequent stops of the audio engine in Mulab, a problem which however seems to be gone now. Since my computer is exactly the same as years ago, something in Mulab must have changed for the better

Mulab is certainly a powerful program, and nobody denies that, but that doesn't mean that many people actually want to use it
Not sure yet, which DAW I will use in the future, but I am pretty sure I will not renew my Mulab license. I just don't feel at ease with it, I don't enjoy using it, which I suppose I should, though, in order to be creative

[MuTools]

To me personally the GUI just doesn't appeal. I downloaded the demo of Lumit yesterday, that is the exact opposite of Mulab, intuitive, friendly and welcoming, color-coded, ergonomic, made for people with a visual mind.

Had a quick look at some the lumit's screenshots and i don't see what you mean. So i assume it's just about taste.

Of course it is a new DAW, so there are still some things to be fixed and improved, but the overall concept and design is just much more appealing in my view. Sorry to say it so directly.

No prob, at the contrary, you know that i always appreciate constructive criticism, as long as it's found and said with respect. That's ok. Based on our recent talks here on the forum we seem to agree that we have a different vision on things.

I just don't feel at ease with it, I don't enjoy using it, which I suppose I should, though, in order to be creative

I absolutely agree that your prefered DAW must feel fine, it's a musical instrument.

[MuTools]

No prob, at the contrary, you know that i always appreciate constructive criticism, as long as it's found and said with respect. That's ok. Based on our recent talks here on the forum we seem to agree that we have a different vision on things.

That said, i will continue to improve things in M7.x, M8, ... including improving the balance between concrete to-the-point-ness and open-ness. Sometimes i tend to be too open-minded which is not always instantly productive, i accept your point there. But then i prefer to start from an open situation and shape things more specifically than the other way around. Note that you can already shape MuLab's setup and workflow to his needs using the many preferences, shortcuts and preset file system. But that assumes you first get into it, which might be (too) daunting for less tech oriented users. Yes, there certainly is room for further evolution. To be continued.

[samardac]

fluffy_little_something,
looks like you in the same situation like me, looking for perfect DAW, I also fall in love in MuTools very fast but when I dig deeper I found that it is not perfect in so much aspects. Also I do not understand developer logic in many cases - now when there are a lot of free great stuff people with limited budget only need great DAW without any built in Synths and FX, but MuTool is not about this, it is about strange developer vision, when he even do not going to implement simple knob reset option that have any DAW, or if you want to find any command to set hotkey it is real pain because no search tool it is absolutely critical for new users. But at the same time in new version we have step sequencer, arpegiator, etc... Why we need all this? We can get better and for free So many strange things for me... Also developer manner to communicate with new user also very strange... So I understood that there will be no any adequate progress for a long time and I leave MuTool and continued my research and this is what I get:

Studio One Prime, absolutely free fully functional DAW, load into it your favorite plugins ant start to use it!
Sonar X3 Artist - 99 USD, or 9 usd per month for subscription, really great solid app, my personal choice.
Cubase Elements 8 - 99 USD, fully functional DAW, load into it your favorite plugins ant start to use it!

If you have no plugins to use with them get them from here http://bedroomproducersblog.com/. Absolutely amazing top class free plugins, the only thing you will need is DAW.

I am long time user of Reason and Cubase and my experience say that it is better to stay with solid, serious apps and do not spend too much time to find miracle

[fluffy_little_something]

While Mulab has also turned out to be kind of incompatible with my way of thinking, I am aware that that is not MuTools' fault, nor mine, it is a simple incompatibility like between two people for instance.
The developer seems to be a friendly person in my view, for a Belgian, anyway

Also, all those lite versions you list there have their drawbacks as well. Studio One Prime for instance does not allow you to load your favorite plugins as it does not support VST's.
Those companies are not stupid, they know that their full products are too much for most people, so nobody would buy them anymore if they did not include basic flaws in their entry versions

I agree, a solid DAW without any included plugins and stuff would be ideal. Mixcraft is nice, but it comes with zillions of crappy plugins that are also part of equally mediocre instruments presets, so one can't simply remove them. They are still in there in the background somehow, I have tried it.
I would love a simple solid DAW, which only shows my two synths and my dozen TB effects and spares me all the usual rest

The new Lumit also comes with a dozen or so effects, which not only consume lots of CPU, they don't even sound that good, nor can I read their user interfaces.

[samardac]

I did not know about that Studio One Prime is not support VST, I installed it tried but do not loaded VST, I just do not like it and leave it
I use Sonar no any drawbacks, price is awaysome. I have collection of my favorite VST I just use them with it. It has 1 or 2 VST instruments and collection of good DXI effects - Sonitus, but I do not use them.