You would think that would be true. However, the VST license agreement REQUIRES that you don't give away ANY of the VST SDK. If someone wants any part of it or to use any part of it, say to modify a file, then they can go and download it for free from Steinberg. Then you have the GPL, which REQUIRES that you give your source away for free with the software for anyone who wants to view it or modify it(in a nutshell).
So there's a problem. One wants you to give it away, but Steinberg doesn't want you to give away or re-distribute ANY of their code, but the GPL requires you to do so no matter what libraries you use. So there is a conflict and to me it seems that the only way out of this is if you are granted a different license than that of the GPL. And by "bribing" Jules, you can grant this wish.
I think that's it. Cheers!
Koolkeys
Announcement for programmers...
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- KVRist
- 47 posts since 19 May, 2004 from Muenchen
Valley, you are really great in misunderstand things in ways nobody else would ever think possible. 
Of course Jules cannot modify other people's licenses. But that's not what is needed here.
The cause for the incompatibility between Steinberg's license and the GPL is that the GPL does not allow to use the GPLed code with Steinberg's stuff. Not vice versa. So what you need is an extended license for JUCE and the derived works, a license which explicitely allows the use together with the Steinberg SDK. Now lawyers might argue on whether Jules' postings in this forum already form such extended license. I don't know whether this is the case in the U.S. (the U.S. legal system is a regular source of entertainment here in Europe), but in all other civilized countries, those postings should be sufficient.
The same is true for all possible other libraries, of course. You always have to check the individual license of each library to see whether it's allowed to use it with third-party products. For those libraries which are included with Windows and Mac OS X, there is no such problem because otherwise the licenses of Windows and Mac OS X themselves would have to mention it (and an operating system which forbids the usage with third-party products would probably have caught your attention).
If anyone still isn't sure whether he can legally use JUCE together with other libraries, then please see a lawyer of your choice and give him this discussion log. It might be a good idea to think about who could possibly sue you, and for what reason.
All others just go ahead, write your software, and be happy.
malamut
So another attempt to make this clear.valley wrote:That has *not* been ascertained.malamut wrote:1) Yes, you can make VST plug-ins with JUCE.
This is incorrect. You *have* to send Steinberg a signed license agreement to release plugs irrespective of JUCE. You simple cannot release plugins that use the VST SDK without doing so.(b) send Steinberg a signed license agreement (free of charge).
That is total crap. Jules cannot give anyone rights to someone elses' property. The rights you have regarding windows, mac, steinberg, or any other code are assigned you by the owners, not by third parties.Jules has already given to everyone the additional right to compile and link JUCE with commercial standard components like those which are delivered with Windows and Max OS X, and with the Steinberg SDK. He did so right in this thread. So don't worry about those issues.
Jules can give you rights over and above the GPL rewgarding his code, if he so chooses. But using JUCE in a mutual compile situation requires that the license of any other linked compents be compatible with the GPL. Steinberg's license is not, end of story.
Of course Jules cannot modify other people's licenses. But that's not what is needed here.
The cause for the incompatibility between Steinberg's license and the GPL is that the GPL does not allow to use the GPLed code with Steinberg's stuff. Not vice versa. So what you need is an extended license for JUCE and the derived works, a license which explicitely allows the use together with the Steinberg SDK. Now lawyers might argue on whether Jules' postings in this forum already form such extended license. I don't know whether this is the case in the U.S. (the U.S. legal system is a regular source of entertainment here in Europe), but in all other civilized countries, those postings should be sufficient.
The same is true for all possible other libraries, of course. You always have to check the individual license of each library to see whether it's allowed to use it with third-party products. For those libraries which are included with Windows and Mac OS X, there is no such problem because otherwise the licenses of Windows and Mac OS X themselves would have to mention it (and an operating system which forbids the usage with third-party products would probably have caught your attention).
If anyone still isn't sure whether he can legally use JUCE together with other libraries, then please see a lawyer of your choice and give him this discussion log. It might be a good idea to think about who could possibly sue you, and for what reason.
All others just go ahead, write your software, and be happy.
malamut
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- KVRAF
- 1718 posts since 3 Sep, 2003
Like I said above, the license grants you the right to redistribute parts of the SDK as an intergral part of a "product".
But like malamut said, If you dont include any part of the SDK in your public GPLd source, and instruct anyone who wants to compile the code to DL the SDK from steinberg, you should be in the clear.
Otherwise, they would have gone after some of the GPLd VSTs by now.
I think the guy who did the Delphi port of the SDK got a special deal?
But like malamut said, If you dont include any part of the SDK in your public GPLd source, and instruct anyone who wants to compile the code to DL the SDK from steinberg, you should be in the clear.
Otherwise, they would have gone after some of the GPLd VSTs by now.
I think the guy who did the Delphi port of the SDK got a special deal?
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
As I said somewhere back in this thread, there is an argument for "it isn't law if it isn't enforced." That does not put you in the clear though, it just means that you're probably OK.Pukeweed wrote: Otherwise, they would have gone after some of the GPLd VSTs by now.
Tobybear's VST headers aren't the official Steinberg ones, so he hasn't technically given them away. That's a grey area, and is the approach that Angus alluded to.I think the guy who did the Delphi port of the SDK got a special deal?
Not including the VST headers is also a workaround (from Steinberg's POV), but falls slightly foul of the GPL. The GPL is a little opaque on the legality of using the GPL in a modified form that is not in the spirit of the GPL.
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
I'm fascinated to know how I could have misread your post.malamut wrote:Valley, you are really great in misunderstand things in ways nobody else would ever think possible.
You were very explicit in you statements. Unfortunately you were also incorrect on a number of points.
Oh, and knocking the US legal system suggests that you haven't been paying enough attention to the EU of late. Maybe you'd like to if you care so much about good IP law, 'cos you and the rest of Europe is fast running out of time.
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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- KVRAF
- 1974 posts since 21 Jun, 2002 from Earth
It always just blows my mind how a kind gesture can get convoluted into absolute madness with all these damn licenses and what not. 
If I knew c++ better, I'd be the first to say "thanks jules! thanks steinberg, bam.. here is the source.. and if you want the VST SDK go here." If they want to get nutty over something that harms absolutely no one.. then more power to them. It shouldn't be such a hassel to create open source material...
If I knew c++ better, I'd be the first to say "thanks jules! thanks steinberg, bam.. here is the source.. and if you want the VST SDK go here." If they want to get nutty over something that harms absolutely no one.. then more power to them. It shouldn't be such a hassel to create open source material...
ModuLR / Radio
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- KVRAF
- 2344 posts since 8 Jul, 2002 from Limerick, Ireland
What ModuLR said!
Thanks Jules! I can only see good things coming from this once all the GPL what-nots have been sorted.
Cheers,
Dave
Thanks Jules! I can only see good things coming from this once all the GPL what-nots have been sorted.
Cheers,
Dave
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- KVRAF
- 8109 posts since 13 Jan, 2003 from Darkest Kent, UK
you don't have these problems with DirectX plugs... 
:D
:D-
- KVRAF
- 2344 posts since 8 Jul, 2002 from Limerick, Ireland
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
It's gonna get worse too. The way the majors are hoovering up patents, pretty soon you aint going to be able to write a line of code without needing a license from someone.ModuLR wrote:It always just blows my mind how a kind gesture can get convoluted into absolute madness with all these damn licenses and what not.
Dude, if I can get some Delphi wrappers started would you be up for a collab on a sample editor using JUCE?
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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- KVRist
- 55 posts since 4 Aug, 2004
dont ya have a license to play dis
Jules too cool for skool my man
im gonna be playin
license this license dat i dont give a F8'kin T8at (give me a break here im postin on the most important thread on KVR so far this year)
this badboy is the b all and end all
flex out
Jules too cool for skool my man
im gonna be playin
license this license dat i dont give a F8'kin T8at (give me a break here im postin on the most important thread on KVR so far this year)
this badboy is the b all and end all
flex out
Now you're in deep shit
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- KVRAF
- 1974 posts since 21 Jun, 2002 from Earth
Whoah! yuppers! you could count me in on that one! I'm very very very close to completing a racked based sample mangler.. so this falls right in that line of thought. WHHoOOoOooT!valley wrote:Dude, if I can get some Delphi wrappers started would you be up for a collab on a sample editor using JUCE?
ModuLR / Radio
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christianmusicmaker christianmusicmaker https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=12152 - KVRAF
- 1670 posts since 1 Feb, 2004 from UK
Too true valley, the severity of it is quite real.valley wrote:
It's gonna get worse too. The way the majors are hoovering up patents, pretty soon you aint going to be able to write a line of code without needing a license from someone.
Linux would very likely be hit pretty hard by it.There is so much opposition to it on various Linux websites.
Is it true that software patents can render software copyright useless?
You mentioned something about using Linux at work I think...do you use Red hat, Suse e.t.c ?