MUX 7, not there yet

[Elenesski]

By making this post I'm not trying to be a troll or be abnormally critical.

So I have been watching MUX since version 5 and have recently tried version 7. I have decided to not buy it at this time because I found it particularly hard to use.

It was okay with the basics, creating a 4 oscillator subtractive synth with a modulators and an effect rack with my own VSTs as FX. That was relatively easy to do. What I found hard was trying to figure out how to make an FM synth, use the Multi Segment bits or incorporating free running LFOs on existing VST patches.

What I found lacking where these features:

1. Lack of a graphical interface made it to hard to figure out how to set some of the parameters.
2. There was no way to see frequency bands, making it really hard to visualize anything to do with altering the audio path; like a multiband EQ. There is an oscilloscope, but I was looking for a frequency response graph or sonogram.
3. There is no way to search presets, either through tags or a simple search mechanism.
4. There seems to be no way to create and share presets. With such a user community already, I thought user presets would be incorporated into the plugin. As a result while there were lots of built in presets, certain aspects were thin, and I expected user work to be available within the plugin itself.
5. Some module controls cannot be copied to the Front Panel, so I found it frustrating to abstract some of the internals. (example, you cannot copy the tempo-sync button from an LFO to the Front Panel)
6. It would be nice if the standard tempo divisions were available like 1/4, 1/4T, 1/4D etc., rather than specifying an arbitrary decimal number. I realize the decimal number is far more powerful, but the lack of having them in a menu for easy selection was a disappointment.
7. There weren't a lot of filters in MUX besides the basics.
8. The documentation is quite thin. For example, I tried to figure out how to modulate a VST with an LFO, but it wasn't clear from the documentation how to do it. I eventually figured out how to by searching Google, but it a long time to do it, and when I did find the magical module, the lack of a search mechanism meant I had to expand lots of menus to find the module I needed. I found that particularly frustrating.

I think MUX still has a lot of potential, so I'll keep my eye out for MUX 7.x changes and version 8 and see how it evolves.

Best,
El

[MuTools]

By making this post I'm not trying to be a troll or be abnormally critical.

Constructive criticism backed up with arguments is always very welcome, thx!

What I found hard was trying to figure out how to make an FM synth

There are several FM patches in the factory lib, eg also the one used in the M7 FM Jam video, patch "BiOp FM Synth". Have a look at them. But that said, i indeed also want to make a little video about audio-rate modulation and use FM as an example.

use the Multi Segment bits

What exactly was hard to figure out about it?

incorporating free running LFOs on existing VST patches.

I'll make a video about that soonish.

What I found lacking where these features:
Lack of a graphical interface made it to hard to figure out how to set some of the parameters.

How do you mean? Most parameters are a knob, just tweak the knob to set the parameter. But i assume you mean something else. Pls elaborate.

There is no way to search presets, either through tags or a simple search mechanism.

Yes there is: Using the project browser, type some search string in the Which field.

Thanks for your feedback, also the other points. I always try to see common lines in user feedback and then work on that in next versions.

[Elenesski]

By making this post I'm not trying to be a troll or be abnormally critical.

Constructive criticism backed up with arguments is always very welcome, thx!

Cheers.

What I found hard was trying to figure out how to make an FM synth

There are several FM patches in the factory lib, eg also the one used in the M7 FM Jam video, patch "BiOp FM Synth". Have a look at them. But that said, i indeed also want to make a little video about audio-rate modulation and use FM as an example.

There is no way to search presets, either through tags or a simple search mechanism.

Yes there is: Using the project browser, type some search string in the Which field.

It was not clear that the browser was present ... right-click to add a module:

Should, also have an option to show the browser. To a new user, especially ones like me who don't automatically read manuals when starting, it wasn't at all clear there was even a way to search presets. Therefore, an option in that menu to show the browser would have been a great help.

One suggestion, I might add is under the "What" section, is an item called "MUX All/VST" (or something like it) that is the same list that you get when "add module", so that you can simultaneously search all devices, factory and user presets, modules and VSTs:
.......

When searching, it would be great to automatically expand all the folders and subfolders (either as a button or default option)... therefore searching for "FM" gives the right-hand view instead of the left hand view as shown here. Without this feature, "FM" results in 7 additional clicks to see all of my available options. If that option already exists that does this, it should be clearer as to where it exists.

use the Multi Segment bits

What exactly was hard to figure out about it?

Suggestions:

1. When Snap is on, it should allow points A and B to move within the GRID, but then snap to 1.1 or 1.2 when the cursor moves closer to it, rather than rigidly forcing the editing cursor to always snap to the grid points. In other software this is usually around 8 pixels. It's painful to have to turn the grid on/off by moving the mouse all the way over to turn the grid on/off. Maybe a keyboard modifier like SHIFT could cause the cursor to SNAP to the grid?
2. Holding down the ALT key while on/near "C" (between points A and B) should alter the slope of the curve according to whatever setting you have for it, instead of going into a menu to set it. Example, suppose I want to create a ducking curve for a pad that runs every beat. So the curve of the line needs to near zero at the start, near 1 for most of the beat, and near zero again near the end of the beat to prevent a clicking artefact.
   
   Editing the ducking curve is really time consuming, because the curve in the editor doesn't look anything like the curve that I want to visually draw out. There is a constant, and some what frustrating, back-and-forth between the curve and the dialog box in order to adjust the curve the way I want it. I realize the curve gets updated when changing it in the dialog box, but it would be much easier to enable editing in the grid rather than in the dialog box.
3. It wasn't obvious to me how to make the multi-point to run freely. For example, here is the ducking pattern I am trying to make above. You can see the pattern in the multi-point editor with the following routing. I expected the the multi-point to be in sync with Live's tempo, where the YELLOW arrows are pointing. I expected the ducking to occur on the beats, but it's running independently of Live's tempo, with no apparent way to align the two.
   
   Now imagine "4 on the floor" drums running on another channel, there is no way to duck the pads for the drums. I suppose you could run in alternate audio and do sidechaining but it seems like I should be able to do this within the editor.
   

Note, I cannot pull in the Event Input 1, because those "Note On's" would reset the start of where the ducking happens and further, the chords are quantized to the beat.

There might be some event generator that triggers the multi-point to work according to the DAW's tempo, but I think it should be the default. Note: I noticed the lack of sync existed on the LFO too. I didn't try all the modules.

incorporating free running LFOs on existing VST patches.

I'll make a video about that soonish.

I noticed there was a general lack of overview videos. Had I decided for MUX, I would have put together my own videos as I learned the tool.

What I found lacking where these features:
Lack of a graphical interface made it to hard to figure out how to set some of the parameters.

How do you mean? Most parameters are a knob, just tweak the knob to set the parameter. But i assume you mean something else. Pls elaborate.

This is Live9's ADSR graphic.


ADSR is generally standard, but in your ADSR module:

There are 7 other knobs that have some kind of effect to the ADSR envelope. Some kind of graphical representation of how these controls are affecting the curve would be really helpful.

This is Live9's Auto Filter Graphic as another example.


I think for me, and probably for a lot of musicians we're very visual oriented, so dials and knobs aren't enough.

Thanks for your feedback, also the other points. I always try to see common lines in user feedback and then work on that in next versions.

As a suggestion, you might want to consider something like "The Idea Wall.com", where your community can suggest ideas and you give them a limited number of votes for the things they want, rather than you guessing what they want for the myriad of Feature Suggestion requests you likely receive all the time. (They have a free plan).

Hope you find my reply useful. I'll reconsider my MUX decision based on your reply.

Best,
El

[Nielzie]

I'll reconsider my MUX decision based on your reply.

Blackmail!

[Elenesski]

I'll reconsider my MUX decision based on your reply.

Blackmail!

Hardly.

The inability to search presets was a big issue and getting a free running multi-point or LFO are really important needs.

I can get frequency graphs and sonagrams via MAnalyze, but it would be nice if they were part of the tool.

[solipsvs]

attempts to start something helpful have met with early demise for lack of participation and of course jo doesnt have time for them himself. you did the best thing you could have done. all i can say is maybe, maybe not. in 2 years time there may be changes like that... or sooner now that i said this. haha just kidding nobody listens to my suggestions.

i personally feel the gui / usability has improved a great deal.

[Elenesski]

One other suggestion would be to make it possible to copy GUI elements from one preset to another. If you did that then you'd implement something very similar to Blocks in Reaktor6. (which I realize is no simple task; I develop too) I realize that you can drag some of the elements, but it loses the formatting and some things like frames cannot be copied. Being about to copy the entire "LFO Wobbler" frame to the other window would make it super easy to assemble much more complex synths quickly.

It would work something like a drag-and-drop action:

[solipsvs]

hey jo! hes a developer man... you two should hook up and let this man at it

[MuTools]

To a new user, especially ones like me who don't automatically read manuals when starting, it wasn't at all clear there was even a way to search presets.

I think that for deep software like MUX Modular, reading docs and watching tutorials is unavoidable from time to time.

When searching, it would be great to automatically expand all the folders and subfolders (either as a button or default option).

Agreed. Taken note on the wishlist.

It's painful to have to turn the grid on/off by moving the mouse all the way over to turn the grid on/off. Maybe a keyboard modifier like SHIFT could cause the cursor to SNAP to the grid?

An available solution is to assign a key shortcut to the "Toggle Snap On/Off" function. That way it only takes a single key press to toggle snapping on/off.

Holding down the ALT key while on/near "C" (between points A and B) should alter the slope of the curve according to whatever setting you have for it, instead of going into a menu to set it.

You even don't have to hold a modifier, just move the mouse near the curve and it changes in a pointing hand with which you can change the curve slope immediately. Pls see this doc page:
http://www.mutools.com/info/docs/common ... ditor.html

It wasn't obvious to me how to make the multi-point to run freely. For example, here is the ducking pattern I am trying to make above. You can see the pattern in the multi-point editor with the following routing. I expected the the multi-point to be in sync with Live's tempo, where the YELLOW arrows are pointing. I expected the ducking to occur on the beats, but it's running independently of Live's tempo, with no apparent way to align the two.

You need to send note events from the host to the MPE to trigger it. That way you can create sync to the host, and much more as you have total control over (re)triggering = syncing.

Now imagine "4 on the floor" drums running on another channel, there is no way to duck the pads for the drums.

Yes there is, cfr my above reply: Route the kick events to the MUX patch and use these to trigger the MPE. Or if the kick is pure audio, then convert it to note events using the Audio Envelope Follower.

I suppose you could run in alternate audio and do sidechaining but it seems like I should be able to do this within the editor.

Besides the above tips which do work, i understand that in some case it would be easier/faster to have a way to instantly sync to the host's transport/position. Taken note on the wishlist.

There might be some event generator that triggers the multi-point to work according to the DAW's tempo, but I think it should be the default.

When i wrote "taken note on the wishlist" i'm indeed thinking about a separate module that can do host syncing. That way it's useful for all kinds of modular patches, and also the LFO etc. As you know you could then create a user MUX preset patch that would have such host-sync + MPE so if used often you can plug the preset in and continue on the music.

How do you mean? Most parameters are a knob, just tweak the knob to set the parameter. But i assume you mean something else. Pls elaborate.

This is Live9's ADSR graphic...
ADSR is generally standard, but in your ADSR module...
There are 7 other knobs that have some kind of effect to the ADSR envelope. Some kind of graphical representation of how these controls are affecting the curve would be really helpful.

I understand your point now, thx.

Hope you find my reply useful.

Definitely, thx!

I'll reconsider my MUX decision based on your reply.

I can't promise anything on short term. Promises would be useless anyway, only the real thing can be used. M7.0 is what it is now, pls evaluate if that's useful for you. If not i hope you'll keep an eye on the next developments. FYI: I'm a indie solo dev and so my resources are limited. I always have to make choices in what to do, what to postpone and what to skip.

Cheers,

Jo

[Trancit]

Just wanted to jump in here a bit...

This one seems to be missed by Joe:

[*]It would be nice if the standard tempo divisions were available like 1/4, 1/4T, 1/4D etc., rather than specifying an arbitrary decimal number. I realize the decimal number is far more powerful, but the lack of having them in a menu for easy selection was a disappointment.

In LFO module you can doubleclick the value (where it says Cpb) and insert i.e. "1/4" or "3/16" for an 1/8d and the LFO translates this to it´s own value...

In general:
MUX is lacking of many things making it "pretty" like many other products do... I agree with you 100% even if it is already miles ahead compared to older versions...
I would love to see a graphic EQ, spectrum, more easy Multienvelope and many other things too...

But (this for me is a really big "but"... and this is my personal opinion only):

1. please always remember, this is a one man show and no big company like NI or Ableton... more man power > more features ...but more bugs, more trouble, less responsive to the community

2. As I sometimes became desperate while trying to reach something, which wasn´t possible in MUX and after some rethinking and talking to Joe, it was mostly just a "nice to have" but nothing really important or a big show stopper...
So I forced myself first to rethink before moaning...

3. Often I was just too silly to find the correct way...

4. Often I overlooked, while trying to make something I couldn´t get out of my mind, that there is already so much stuff in there, that it would take more than my life time to max the possibilities out which MUX already has... It cannot do everything (no product does) but it can already do that much...

I just changed the way to look at it... instead of blocking my mind with a certain idea/aim and try to backward engineer, I play with the stuff it got and see, what I come up with...
Not to get me wrong...of course by following a certain aim, but not with this constraint "it has to be this way"

5. Just one last point and here I have to quote myself:

...but it can already do that much...

and it does it so f*cking well...
I am always again impressed by the sound of the internal components and how easy it is to reach this quality... to me it sounds absolutely brilliant and isn´t this the point which matters when we talking about instruments and fx???

Please don´t get me wrong... I don´t want to attack someone, this is just my story and what I think about Joe´s work and of course it´s not against FR´s , field reports or stuff like this... but perhaps there is somebody out there in the same situation like I was...

[Elenesski]

I'll reconsider my MUX decision based on your reply.

I can't promise anything on short term. Promises would be useless anyway, only the real thing can be used. M7.0 is what it is now, pls evaluate if that's useful for you. If not i hope you'll keep an eye on the next developments. FYI: I'm a indie solo dev and so my resources are limited. I always have to make choices in what to do, what to postpone and what to skip.

Cheers,

Jo

Success ... at least for the ducking.

As an indie/pro developer myself, working on a game (elenesski.info), I have to say that MUX is pretty impressive for a solo effort. I totally understand the limitations you have on implementing things because you have to do it all yourself, even if you have frameworks to lessen effort it's still a challenge to make it all work.

I'd help, as solipsvs implies, if it was coded in C# and I actually had time, but my game development is a good 60-70h/week effort at the moment.

You've impressed me enough that I've decided to buy MUX, however, I must implore you to write the "front panel" copying mechanism. (I'd write it for you if the base code was C#, but I imagine it's written in C++ which I don't like much; got burned too much even when writing C. PM me if you want to chat further.)

[MuTools]

Thanks for posting your experience Trancit. Indeed we have had many interesting constructive discussions about MuLab/MUX, here on this forum and via email. I hope as a long time user you see that i do take things into account, maybe not always immediately but that's because i want to carefully think about FRs and combine different aspects. And indeed also because i'm but a single dev. About that single dev situation: Maybe my ambition to make a DAW + modular synth/effect is too much for one man... Because expectations must be in balance with the resources, which may not be the case atm, which is not ideal for anyone. Nothing negative in this, just constructive realism. Sometimes i wonder: should i have to make a choice between MuLab and MUX? But then it's also the seamless integration between both that brings extra magic so i'd love to continue that adventure. It's not an easy puzzle... Feel free to elaborate, i'm interested in other views.

[MuTools]

Success ... at least for the ducking.

Perfect! And it gives you all control!

You've impressed me enough that I've decided to buy MUX

Thanks. Your purchase will be well reinvested in continued development.

however, I must implore you to write the "front panel" copying mechanism.

As you already suspect, that's not an easy one i'm afraid. And appart from that technical challenge, your FR will also have to compete with the many other FRs waiting for attention, cfr the limits of a one dev situation.

PM me if you want to chat further.

Done.

[Taifunk]

By making this post I'm not trying to be a troll or be abnormally critical.

Good discussion,Welcome aboard!

When i wrote "taken note on the wishlist" i'm indeed thinking about a separate module that can do host syncing. That way it's useful for all kinds of modular patches, and also the LFO etc. As you know you could then create a user MUX preset patch that would have such host-sync + MPE so if used often you can plug the preset in and continue on the music.

Thanks Jo for taking this into account,It is one of the features that I really miss and a dedicated module is great

Please don´t get me wrong... I don´t want to attack someone, this is just my story and what I think about Joe´s work and of course it´s not against FR´s , field reports or stuff like this... but perhaps there is somebody out there in the same situation like I was...

I agree with everything you wrote