Do any u-he synths work with the ROLI Seaboard Rise keyboards?

[bhinton]

I've been using Bazille with the Rise 49 and a Linnstrument with no issues.
Wrapping in Plogue Bidule or using Bidule or a similar tool with good midi remapping makes it a cinch.
- Lock pitch bend to +/- 24 in both the Rise and Bazille
- Remap CC74 to 01 or 02 (ModWheel or Breath Control)
- Off you go.

Issues with the Rise itself so far:
- Pitch bend isn't as smooth as one would like.
- Above is made worse by the need to set the Glide range to slightly less than 100% if you want to sound adjacent semitones at the same time.
- For me, 49 keys, even with the octave switch, feels very restrictive, but I think many won't care.
- Equator is hobbled in MPE mode (global controls don't work correctly eg sustain) but just use MC mode and you're good to go. But Equator is no Bazille anyway!
- As with all of these alternative controllers, velocity is the most problematic of the control dimensions - if you are trained as a pianist and want to have that level of velocity control you won't get it, though its better than the EIgenharp and the Linnstrument in this regard.
- Also in line with the other alt controllers, it takes practice to play in tune. Be patient, and learn to sense the center of the ridges on the top of the key waves.
- Don't judge the capabilities based on Equator. Edit some Bazille patches so that they take advantage of the Rise's architecture instead. Not to say there is anything wrong with Equator - but as far as presets its all either imitative or stuff you've heard before. Bazille is the PERFECT instrument to pair with this. at least until we get multi-channel / MPE support in Zebra .

Pros:
- Most playable poly aftertouch ever. This aspect is downright addictive.
- Astonishing with Bazille (but practice practice practice!)
- With the right patches, close your eyes and you forget you are playing something virtual - you feel a real connection to the sound, nothing like a keyboard.
- Hard to go back to a regular keyboard (except for piano).

the combination of a Rise, Linnstrument, and a good weighted-action or at least novation-remote level action keyboard is wonderful.

[pdxindy]

the combination of a Rise, Linnstrument, and a good weighted-action or at least novation-remote level action keyboard is wonderful.

Thanks for the good write up!

If you had to choose between the Rise 49 and the Linnstrument, which would you choose?

[bhinton]

Right now, if told I had to choose one to give up... I'd probably just panic.
Maybe in a month or so I'll have a better sense - they just feel so different from each other.
The Linnstrument wins for versatility (it's much more than a gridded multi-dimensional playing surface).
In the end, the Roli is still a keyboard. But it definitely wins in the "connected to the sound" category.
I doubt I'll be creating any patches that work for both.

[Tecumseh]

Sorry if OT but,

bhinton, as someone contemplating purchasing either the Seaboard Rise 49 or the Linnstrument, I found your comparisons interesting! I haven't really found many write-ups comparing the two, and was wondering if you could elaborate on the following:

- As with all of these alternative controllers, velocity is the most problematic of the control dimensions - if you are trained as a pianist and want to have that level of velocity control you won't get it, though its better than the EIgenharp and the Linnstrument in this regard.

Could you give a rough estimate as to the amount of force it takes to send a note with these two controllers? As in minimum activation force, and then with decent velocity? It may seem like a strange question, but as someone with hand ailments, I need a controller I don't have to "manhandle"...

Also regarding the Linnstrument, though (as you allude in your write-up) apparently lacking in finesse with controlling the velocity (which certainly makes sense due to it's design), do you think one could reliably coax a couple of distinct levels of velocity out of it, for some basic form of dynamics?

Thanks in advance!

[bhinton]

There are hidden (but documented on the support site) controls on the linnstrument for adjusting sensitivity, and also three sensitivity levels to choose from - at the most sensitive, it takes barely anything to send a note, and I can hit full (127) without striking from above.

The Rise is also very sensitive - in fact, one of the first things you have to learn is to not accidentally trigger notes when fingers brush against notes while playing.

I also have hand issues which are sometimes very painful - which was one of the original reasons I was interested in the Rise. The Linnstrument is also easy on the hands as far as pressure - but it does require some contortions to play certain chord/patterns, depending on how you set the interval between rows, while the primary hand position adjustment on the Rise involves the fact that black-to-white key slides where you want both notes to be triggered in succession (as opposed to a bend) need to involve two fingers instead of one.

It's no problem to access different velocity levels while playing. And neither requires much force at all for medium velocity levels. I was trained as a classical pianist so I'm super picky about velocity response, so the fact that neither gives the level of fine control I can get with a good weighted keyboard is an issue of me, while it might not be for many.

[HHaynes]

The Rise is also very sensitive - in fact, one of the first things you have to learn is to not accidentally trigger notes when fingers brush against notes while playing.

I can echo bhinton's sentiment on this. (though I have no experience with any of the other alt contollers) You really have to be prepared to articulate your phrasing with specific playing technique. But with a bit of wood-shedding the result is startlingly good.

I've read through this thread and have a few things to add regarding the limitations of using the RISE with u-he instruments (I only have HIVE, but have also used it with fxpansion's Strobe 2 and of course ROLI's Equator).

1) Using the RISE 25 with HIVE in Cubase: As others have mentioned, this is a pretty gratifying experience. There are some tweaks to add certain controllers to note expression (I add expression along with pressure and pitch bend, for reasons you'll see below). I then map MIDI CC 74 coming from the RISE 25 to MIDI CC 11 - standard MIDI for "Expression". This is mappable within HIVE, and I assume other u-he instruments on a per-note-per-channel basis.

Screen Shot 2016-04-09 at 12.13.15 PM.png

I did *not* map this to MIDI CC 01 because my assumption that particular controller would be read as a "master" control - but maybe not. Such as it is - using Expression not only frees up CC 01 for "standard" duty, but Expression is used in many HIVE presets, so the RISE 25 "just works" with those presets - and of course for others it's easy to re-map or add other mods to presets and hear the results.

2) Using RISE 25 with *anything* in Bitwig Studio: On the Bitwig side of things, you have to be sure to set the "Force MPE mode" on the synth instance that's in your instrument track. Once you've done that, you *still* have the wrinkle of the left-hand controls of the RISE 25 (or 49) *not* working through the included ROLI device controller script. This is because the RISE script is based off of the GRAND script, which has no left hand controls. The script has certain "masks" set to allow certain MIDI data ranges through its input. I did a quick little fix that allows everything in the 0x6 and 0x7 MIDI CC range, which is really only part of the range that the RISE supports through their Dashboard. But, it covers the range that's set in their default settings.

Screen Shot 2016-04-10 at 11.30.54 AM.png

In the screen grab above you'll see the highlighted settings that I added to the input filter. Once that's done then the LH controls (three sliders and X-Y control) pass through without a fuss. I'm sure there's a more elegant way to do this, and I'm contemplating a few extensions to this script myself.

One of the things that I plan to add is a MIDI mapper within the device control script itself - ostensibly to map CC74 to CC11, but I'll probably put it in a parameter field in the device controller setup screen, so the user can decide what they're going to use. The down-side of this approach is that you'd be "stuck" with that mapping, so that using Equator would require returning to the device control setup panel and *dis*abling the mapper. So that takes it out of contention for use in live play. That said, it should be good enough for tracking/recording purposes. Once I have that custom device control script in place, I'll post it in my public GitHub repo, so that anyone interested can try it out.

[thetechnobear]

One of the things that I plan to add is a MIDI mapper within the device control script itself - ostensibly to map CC74 to CC11, but I'll probably put it in a parameter field in the device controller setup screen, so the user can decide what they're going to use. The down-side of this approach is that you'd be "stuck" with that mapping, so that using Equator would require returning to the device control setup panel and *dis*abling the mapper. So that takes it out of contention for use in live play. That said, it should be good enough for tracking/recording purposes. Once I have that custom device control script in place, I'll post it in my public GitHub repo, so that anyone interested can try it out.

if you goal is that this will give you per key expression within bitwig for u-he instruments, it wont work....
when BW hosts a vsts and using force MPE, timbre is hardcoded to send CC74 (regardless of how timbre was put on the track ... remember you could put it there with a controller by drawing it)
the only workaround is to use a host within a host e.g something like bidule, and then in bidule remap cc74 to cc11.

[HHaynes]

if you goal is that this will give you per key expression within bitwig for u-he instruments, it wont work....
when BW hosts a vsts and using force MPE, timbre is hardcoded to send CC74 (regardless of how timbre was put on the track ... remember you could put it there with a controller by drawing it)
the only workaround is to use a host within a host e.g something like bidule, and then in bidule remap cc74 to cc11.

Interesting - perhaps it would work to create a MIDI plugin to convert RISE-native data once it has passed into the channel control? I have a license for Bidule too but would like to try to build my own MIDI plugin, just for kicks.

[thetechnobear]

if you goal is that this will give you per key expression within bitwig for u-he instruments, it wont work....
when BW hosts a vsts and using force MPE, timbre is hardcoded to send CC74 (regardless of how timbre was put on the track ... remember you could put it there with a controller by drawing it)
the only workaround is to use a host within a host e.g something like bidule, and then in bidule remap cc74 to cc11.

Interesting - perhaps it would work to create a MIDI plugin to convert RISE-native data once it has passed into the channel control? I have a license for Bidule too but would like to try to build my own MIDI plugin, just for kicks.

perhaps ... but I suspect not... I think bitwig may 'interfere' with midi messages as they move between plugins.
I say this, as I tried to use bidule to do what you said, (actually I just did a midi passthru and tested with aalto which supports MPE) , and the midi channels appears to be altered as they went out of bidule and into aalto. (you need everything, except the CC 74 to CC 11 translation to be untouched, and keeping the midi channel intact is very important)

[K-Bee]

Almost 2 years since the last post. Any news about full MPE support? I'm a Seaboard owner but in the light of the recent popularity and campaigning for the BLOCKS, it looks like MPE support is more relevant than ever

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

Almost 2 years since the last post. Any news about full MPE support? I'm a Seaboard owner but in the light of the recent popularity and campaigning for the BLOCKS, it looks like MPE support is more relevant than ever

Zebra2 won't get MPE due to the whole voice structure needing a complete rewrite, which will happen with Z3. As of the most recent Diva beta, Diva is now fully MPE compatible. RePro-5 doesn't yet support the CC74 function, but you can always use something like a MIDI input transformer to remap that to breath or expression to get around that. Expect MPE on more of these synths as the browser updates go out.

[Howard]

RePro-5 doesn't yet support the CC74 function, but you can always use something like a MIDI input transformer to remap that to breath or expression to get around that.

In all forthcoming updates, Breath and Expression have been replaced with the definable "Control A" and "Control B". Recommend setting e.g. Control B to MIDI CC#74.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

RePro-5 doesn't yet support the CC74 function, but you can always use something like a MIDI input transformer to remap that to breath or expression to get around that.

In all forthcoming updates, Breath and Expression have been replaced with the definable "Control A" and "Control B". Recommend setting e.g. Control B to MIDI CC#74.

Yes, this works like a charm in the current Diva beta. Looking forward to seeing it trickle out to RePro's and ACE.

[K-Bee]

Thanks
I'm yet to have any U.He synths apart from the freebies, but Zebra and Diva could be on the horizon. If Diva is fully compatible without all those tedious workarounds, it is most certainly the next on my "want list"