MeldaProduction

Terrafractyl · Post by **Terrafractyl** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:19 am

So I just did another different test. I wanted to check on the perceived volume of these respective saw waveforms, and one thing became clear instantly.

MPowersynth outputs a signal louder than it actually is, in perceived volume, in comparison to all these other synths.

I got all synths playing the same note with a simple saw, no filter etc, and then leveled the gain so all so the channels in the cubase mixer show exactly the same reading in db.

To my ears, MPowersynth is markedly quieter than all the rest, and has slightly less low end presence.

Which kind of backs up my thoughts about wasted energry/power in the waveform as it peaking at the same db value, but its RMS value is like 1/3 less than all the other synths.

?

ZentralmassivSound · Post by **ZentralmassivSound** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:29 am

Be sure to look closely at the oscilloscope pictures though. Synthmaster for example looks more like MPS than like Zebra. It's also asymetric. If you flip the phase, MOscilloscope gets the same representation so it's better comparable.

However the question about the asymetry is interesting. Isn't such an oscillator producing a DC offset?

SynthMaster

Chandlerhimself · Post by **Chandlerhimself** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:46 am

Are you sure this doesn't happen in Zebra. I have the free version, Zebralette and I just tried it. It exibits ther same behavior as MPS. As you move down the keyboard the shape changes and become more asymetrical. Synthmaster and I beleive Zeta2 also did this. Zebralette and MPS also sounded virtually the same in the low registar. I doubt I would have been able to pick out which is which in a blind test. Maybe Zebra is different somehow, but Zebralettes waveform looks like what has been posted above.

jmg8 · Post by **jmg8** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:33 pm

OK so here are Zebra (top), Zebralette (middle) and MPowerSynth (bottom) all in their initialized saw states.

jmg8 · Post by **jmg8** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:42 pm

Just for the record, I can here a big difference between Zebra and MPS saw waves. Not saying I prefer one over the other, but they definitely sound different.

I agree with Terrafractyl, that if the speaker is not being pulled fully backwards as it is forwards, then surly this is why it is showing a higher peak value but quieter loudness.

Also why are the two synths the same wave shape at higher pitches but very different the lower the pitch?

jmg8 · Post by **jmg8** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:26 pm

Also her is MPowerSynth (bottom) vs Zebra (top).
MPS has a lot more top end than Zebra.

Terrafractyl · Post by **Terrafractyl** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:00 pm

Yes the Top end of MPowersynth is something to behold! Nothing like it on the spectrum analyzers for sure.

But its the low end I'm asking about here, and for a lot of people the low end is even more important than the tops in Electronic Music production!

Maybe this is a case of different by design, and this design works brilliantly to remove aliasing in the top end, but not so well at accurately producing wave forms down low.
It's funny because over the last year or so of using MPowersynth I just gradually started using it only for leads and high frequency content stuff anyway so I guess my brain was already working this out.

I still think its odd that no-one other than jmg8 can hear the difference, to me it is pretty huge. and I'm sure the lack of low end is not in my imagination.

Reaktor, Zebra, Serum, Sylenth, the list goes on. All dead straight saw waves from very respected synths.

Another question regarding this skewed Saw... What about when using it as a modulator in an FM patch?

FM/AM or any process that uses this waveform to modify another will have a completely different result with this waveform in comparison the 'traditional' saw waveform.

But really the main issue to me, is the slight weirdness with the sound of saw's down in the low end.
Also the lack of power/volume.

Terrafractyl · Post by **Terrafractyl** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:02 pm

ZentralmassivSound wrote:Be sure to look closely at the oscilloscope pictures though. Synthmaster for example looks more like MPS than like Zebra. It's also asymetric. If you flip the phase, MOscilloscope gets the same representation so it's better comparable.

However the question about the asymetry is interesting. Isn't such an oscillator producing a DC offset?

SynthMaster

Are you sure you are using the correct sawtooth though?

Synthmaster has 2 saws in the osc select tabs, and one looks just like the scope shot you posted.
The other one is pretty close to Zebra.

Also In this case I think it would not be DC-offset, but DC-bias as the average gain on either side of the waveform is the same.
DC bias is something I have done a bit of research into for exactly this reason. A lot of non-linear phase filters will take a proper saw wave form, and make it look almost exactly like this MPowersynth saw, which in turn takes a lot away from the maximum RMS level acheivable with that particular waveform.

Terrafractyl · Post by **Terrafractyl** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:42 pm

Ok maybe I am the only one who cares about this anymore, but for me, after doing these tests, I have fully scratched MPowersynth as an option for making bass heavy synth lines with saws or squares.
Almost a 1/3 of this waveform is missing in comparison to other synths, so by using this synth for bass I am effectively wasting the equivalent amount of energy in low frequency power. To me, this is often going to be more important that crispy non-aliased highs.

I know he is recently married and has other things to worry about! but I'm pretty interested to hear Vojtech opinion on the wasted energy in the waveform.

A pity, I was really hoping that at least it would do as it says in the manual and create the perfect saw shape when I set the quality to low.
But it is definitely not so.... I think I was just starting to think that all melda products could do 'anything'! So I am just surprised I cannot make this synth create the waveshape I want.

VibraSound · Post by **VibraSound** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:07 pm

Natural waveform asymmetry cannot be 'corrected' with a high-pass filter, and a rather more complicated solution is required called a 'phase rotator'. Generally, there is no need to 'correct' a naturally asymmetrical signal, but occasionally the asymmetry can restrict how much the signal can be amplified because the stronger half of the waveform will reach the clip level before the weaker side. By using a phase rotator process to alter the harmonic phase relationships, a more balanced symmetry can be established, allowing slightly more gain to be applied before both sides reach the clipping level at the same amplitude. Asymmetrical waveforms can also sometimes confuse the side-chain level-detection circuitry (or algorithms) of some compressors, resulting in less effective compression than might be expected.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advic ... -lop-sided

High-pass filters, and aggressive low-end processing are common causes of asymmetric waveforms.

http://www.producenewmedia.com/asymmetr ... concerned/

steve2KVR · Post by **steve2KVR** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 11:24 pm

I know he is recently married and has other things to worry about! but I'm pretty interested to hear Vojtech opinion on the wasted energy in the waveform.

...I to hope not to enflame this situation...but

...given how responsive to all of our "requests/suggestions" he is on this forum, maybe a little "space" would be appropriate...I'm on mac/logic and I've NERVER heard from that bunch :scared ...to say nothing of ms

...so I enjoy what I've got and look forward to the future...

.../s~

Terrafractyl · Post by **Terrafractyl** » Fri Jul 22, 2016 12:33 am

VibraSound wrote:Natural waveform asymmetry cannot be 'corrected' with a high-pass filter, and a rather more complicated solution is required called a 'phase rotator'. Generally, there is no need to 'correct' a naturally asymmetrical signal, but occasionally the asymmetry can restrict how much the signal can be amplified because the stronger half of the waveform will reach the clip level before the weaker side. By using a phase rotator process to alter the harmonic phase relationships, a more balanced symmetry can be established, allowing slightly more gain to be applied before both sides reach the clipping level at the same amplitude. Asymmetrical waveforms can also sometimes confuse the side-chain level-detection circuitry (or algorithms) of some compressors, resulting in less effective compression than might be expected.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advic ... -lop-sided

High-pass filters, and aggressive low-end processing are common causes of asymmetric waveforms.

http://www.producenewmedia.com/asymmetr ... concerned/

This is what I was talking about before, I've found that nearly everyone puts a High pass filter on their bass lines, and if that high pass is not linear phase -> Lopsided waveform. The steeper the filter the more lopsided the waveform. But in this case there is absolutely no filter in the equation, hence my question!

MeldaProduction · Post by **MeldaProduction** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 4:59 pm

I just checked in the analyzer - comparing the MPowerSynth's saw to MOscillator (which looks like normal sawtooth) - both have the exact same spectrum response. So the only difference is the phase-shift.

And here's the reason (I was confused myself too, so don't worry

) - it is the DC filter. To disable it click the huge Advanced settings window and uncheck "DC filter" .

jmg8 · Post by **jmg8** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:28 pm

Wow, he he. Yes that sorts it, well found.
Now everyone uninstall zebra, ha ha.

ZentralmassivSound · Post by **ZentralmassivSound** » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:45 pm

Wow, interesting stuff here. I wasn't really aware of the difference between asymetry and DC offset. Thanks for the infos guys!

MeldaProduction

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MPowersynth Sawtooth issue / DC-Bias affecting maximum RMS