Tone2 will release Icarus - 3D WaveTable Synthesizer

[Ingonator]

Well, 3D usually means to be able to move through a 3-dimensional space (or in 3 ways). I can't see how a single waveform would represent any kind of movement, while your 2nd and 3rd dimension represent a kind of movement. I agree with Sendy, the term used in this context is a bit misleading.

Well, the real world is 3-dimensional (4D if you include the time as a dimension...) but you could only move in 2 dimensions: left/right and up/down
The 1st dimension is if you stay at a certain place without moving.

If Icarus would be able to move a wavetable in 3 dimensions (instead of 2 lie it does) how would you call a single waveform then? Dimension zero maybe?

Concerning the time dimension within Icarus this is includied in the mod sources (e.g. envelopes or LFOs).
Also a single waveform has a time dimension in it (while the length of the single waveforms in the wavetable is always the same for all of them).

[chk071]

Ok, i maybe didn't explain it well. 3D usually defines a spatial representation of a solid figure, with 3 values. In the case of Icarus, i only see 2 of those.

[OneOfManyPauls]

At least they provide a demo, so it's not like people should be going into a purchase blind.

[Numanoid]

At least they provide a demo, so it's not like people should be going into a purchase blind.

Not to mention that their demo limitations are among the best

[chk071]

At least they provide a demo, so it's not like people should be going into a purchase blind.

Not to mention that their demo limitations are among the best

Yes. Half an hour of demo'ing. Then your ears get shredded.

Just trolling.

[Sendy]

A bit disappointed by the "3D wavetable" thing. I was expecting actual 3D wavetables, which you could then go onto mangle with oscillator effects. As it stands, we have a normal wavetable - one dimension of freedom, plus an oscillator effect. That's... 2D? Pretty much the same as NI Massive, only Icarus has a lot more options, and a more modern design (and arguably better sound).

Playing Devil's Advocate, if U-he were to adopt this terminology, they would be rocking the 5D wavetable technology - 1D wavetable, the two spectral effects now generating a cube of waveform possibilities, then PW (inverted mixing of a dephased copy) and self-sync. That's a 5D hyper-hyper-cube of available waveforms, each one smoothly navigable to the next - right at the oscillator level.

The 3 dimensions are:
- 1st dimension : single waveform
- 2nd dimension : wavetable scanning (Wave knob and modulation of this)
- 3rd dimension : Osc Morph modes and modulation of the corresponding Morph knob (e.g. FM amount at the FM modes)

You could also render the combination of the current setting of the Morph knob and the current wavetable to a new wavetable (with "Apply Morph to Wavetable" from the Tool menu in the current Osc), do the same with another Morph mode and so on. Compared to the original wavetable this could be somehow seen as adding additional "dimensions"...

A "1D wavetable" does not exist as this would correspond to a single waveform.
Actually even a single waveform has 2 dimensions: Amplitude and time

IMO it's really time to stop those ongoing rants about the "3D wavetable" term and just accept it the way it works in Icraus (which could be quite versatile and/or powerful).

The entire point of my post was to express my feelings about this, and to advise people to try the synth anyway, because it's awesome, just not in the way I was expecting. You have to bear in mind, I've had this "3D wavetable" hype building up in my head for a few months now, and as someone who is really into geometry and sound, I wanted to share my opinion. Most people think of a single timbre as a point, a wavetable as a line, a wavetable with a modifier as a square, etc. Counting the current phase offset or the timbre information is technically OK, but seems misleading, perhaps unintentionally.

The reason I put that big blue "THAT SAID" was to draw the eye down to the positives I was finding. Yes, you can count many extra variables as dimensions if you choose to, I think I was pretty clear that I was finding many awesome and unique selling points and avenues for creativity in Icarus (all of which can be considered dimensions if you like), just not the ones I was expecting to.

Anyway, I'll speak no more of it, it's just a technicality, albeit an interesting one from my perspective.

[Frantz]

Well, the real world is 3-dimensional (4D if you include the time as a dimension...) but you could only move in 2 dimensions: left/right and up/down

You live in a strange world. In my world, I can move forward/back, left/right, and up/down. I can move in all 3 dimensions. You could take a break from KVR and try to remember how the 3D world works.

[Sendy]

Ok, i maybe didn't explain it well. 3D usually defines a spatial representation of a solid figure, with 3 values. In the case of Icarus, i only see 2 of those.

The point Ingonator is making (I believe) is that the information for each wave at a point in any of these two dimensions IS the extra dimension. Technically correct, especially from a programming point of view, but as I pointed out, potentially misleading to how wavetables are usually thought of by endusers.

[Ingonator]

Ok, i maybe didn't explain it well. 3D usually defines a spatial representation of a solid figure, with 3 values. In the case of Icarus, i only see 2 of those.

Let's say it that way:
The wavetables in Icarus could be 3D but they only have two variables, the Wave index and the Morph knob (for the corresponding Morph mode).
If both variables stay static you still got the 1st dimension, a single waveform.

Technically correct, especially from a programming point of view, but as I pointed out, potentially misleading to how wavetables are usually thought of by endusers.

A "normal" wavetable is always 2D where the 1st dimension is a single waveform and the second the wavetable index. Icarus adds a 3rd dimension with the Morph parameter.

FWIW a synth that has FM with a FM amount that could be modulated could be called "3D" too. Anyway Icarus got a lot more differnt modes than just FM.

Also NI Massive had a kind of 3D wavetables with the advanced Osc modes but it has by far not as many options as Icarus in that respect. And FWIW NI did just not have the idea to call this "3D".

The Xils Lab synths seemed to already have early implementations of "zero delay feedback filters" before Diva was released but nobody cared about that term until Diva was released...

[chk071]

Well, i guess there's different interpretations to this, fair enough.

[Numanoid]

Too me, 3D is that mysterious z-plane dimension

[Sendy]

Ok, i maybe didn't explain it well. 3D usually defines a spatial representation of a solid figure, with 3 values. In the case of Icarus, i only see 2 of those.

Let's say it that way:
The wavetables in Icarus could be 3D but they only have two variables, the Wave index and the Morph knob (for the corresponding Morph mode).
If both variables stay static you still got the 1st dimension, a single waveform.

Technically correct, especially from a programming point of view, but as I pointed out, potentially misleading to how wavetables are usually thought of by endusers.

A "normal" wavetable is always 2D where the 1st dimension is a single waveform and the second the wavetable index. Icarus adds a 3rd dimension with the Morph parameter.

FWIW a synth that has FM with a FM amount that could be modulated could be called "3D" too. Anyway Icarus got a lot more differnt modes than just FM.

Yeah, but no, and more no than yeah. You can count every single parameter in a synth as a dimension in that synth's timbre space. Cutoff and resonance. Filter type. Most synths exist in mathematical spaces that have so many dimensions they would blow our mind to visualise it.

But to say "3D wavetable" conjours a very specific image in most people's minds about how the oscillator and wavetables are going to work. I.e. that there will be three coordinates defining each specific single-cycle wave. I'm not "in the right" - technically you can look at it however you want, I'm just saying what I believe many people will be thinking.

And I'm not saying any of this to be pedantic. It's my reaction and an explanation as to how I felt that way. And I'll state again that none of it should put anyone off trying the synth, because it's awesome anyway. It's just a shame we're talking about the one negative in my post instead all of the awesome and unique features I mentioned. Just let it go. My reaction is the same for all Tone2 synths, nothing but praise but one point of contention over the marketing. And it's always this one negative that sticks like a thorn.

[OneOfManyPauls]

I'd argue that the only real dimensions at play are time and amplitude. Index, morphing etc just affect amplitude.

[Sendy]

I'd argue that the only real dimensions at play are time and amplitude. Index, morphing etc just affect amplitude.

Very true. Even pitch is just a way of describing how fast amplitude changes over time. Filtering is a way of describing how quickly the amplitude can change abruptly (lowpass) or how it's able to stay still (highpass) and how much it wiggles around (resonance).

It's just a value changing over time, going into our ears, and our brains do so much with it.

[Mac of BIOnighT]