!Epoch, for the next 4 years

[lnikj]

Although it may sounds backwards when compared to standard reading direction, in coding terms it works nicely. Right-to-left makes sense here because the signal inlet, the one that actually tells the module to do it's thing, is always the left-most. In theory, swapping the order isn't a big issue, but this way has always felt most natural to me, it being, more or less, a standard in several other flow-based languages. Still, as always, feedback appreciated, and I'll try the other direction to see how it feels.

Hi Colin

I've badgered you for screenshots in the past so many thanks for them here. I am somewhat overwhelmed by them, and only vaguely understand what I am looking at!

Nevertheless, I am a punter who will no doubt buy it, because I love exploring and trying to understand complicated tools much more than I enjoy making music (sad, isn't it!).

Anyway, getting to the point, your statement (in bold) above is clearly self-evident to you, but my small brain is struggling to get my head around it. Could you elaborate? Beyond a bit of dabbling with perl and php in the past I am not a coder and it is not self-evident to me. I am a punter who, I think, would expect signal flow to be L -> R.

[very angry mobster]

!Epoch looks awesome!!

Anyway, getting to the point, your statement (in bold) above is clearly self-evident to you, but my small brain is struggling to get my head around it. Could you elaborate? Beyond a bit of dabbling with perl and php in the past I am not a coder and it is not self-evident to me. I am a punter who, I think, would expect signal flow to be L -> R.

Don't worry about it Iniky. AFAIK Max works the same way. It's strange at first as it does seem backwards but you get used to it pretty quickly.

[colin@loomer]

I would suggest not locking it down until you get a beta in the wild, you have to remember that what feels natural to a coder, may not feel natural to joe blogs, a lot of the reason why Reapers UX is a complete mess for instance.

In code terms, it's easy to switch from left-to-right to right-to-left. I'm going to make the switch later today, and have a play for a few days, to see if it feels any better. And you're absolutely right: I chose right-to-left because that's what I was used to. Thanks for actually pointing out that legacy reasons aren't always the most logical to someone coming in anew, something it's all too easy as a developer in isolation to overlook.

[bungle]

No problem, its little bits like that that the first public betas are for in my mind, catching bugs is all well and good, but the backbone needs to be defined very early or it ends up sticking.
And lets be clear here, MAX can not be a benchmark here, one of the biggest complaints about MAX from the average bod "its a pita to use" Synthedit should be more of a benchmark, anybody can pick it up and use it (if the developer had simply made it a VST, it would be the most used VST in history)

[grinzler]

i took a lot of shit here in this thread but not for the right reasons (the character of what i said instead of the content) don't forget that a mod closed the last thread because he felt this developer was taking advantage of his forum here and that mod was mocked for it like i was mocked. nobody wants to be a pariah so not many people will speak their mind in a community where social status has a bearing on whether your comments and questions are respected and replied to. thanks for showing your true colors everyone and thanks for re-involving us in your project colin. i'll butt out now.

[colin@loomer]

Just to clarify, a moderator didn't close the thread; it was closed by the thread creator. As a moderator myself, I could have quite easily have re-opened it, but I simply favour a laissez-faire approach to moderation.

[very angry mobster]

Definitely not going to argue Max is perfect. It does do a few things right. It's documentation (when it works) is pretty good. Would love to have Max as a VST despite it's short comings.

No problem, its little bits like that that the first public betas are for in my mind, catching bugs is all well and good, but the backbone needs to be defined very early or it ends up sticking.
And lets be clear here, MAX can not be a benchmark here, one of the biggest complaints about MAX from the average bod "its a pita to use" Synthedit should be more of a benchmark, anybody can pick it up and use it (if the developer had simply made it a VST, it would be the most used VST in history)

[whyterabbyt]

i took a lot of shit here in this thread but not for the right reasons

no, it was for the right reasons. your self-righteous entitlement, and your unwarranted direct attacks on the developer's character and his capabilities.

don't forget that a mod closed the last thread

try and remember it was the OP who closed the last thread.

because he felt this developer was taking advantage of his forum here

Ah. You just happen to be able to speak as to the motivation of an imaginary mod. Good one.

and that mod was mocked for it like i was mocked.

you were mocked just like that imaginary mod was mocked? Poor you.

(Where did they mock the imaginary mod for locking the thread, I have to wonder... cos the thread would have been locked before he was mocked. Its all rather half-cocked.)

nobody wants to be a pariah so not many people will speak their mind in a community where social status has a bearing on whether your comments and questions are respected and replied to.

If you want to have your comments and questions respected, trying showing some basic respect in them in the first place. Until you can manage that, dont be surprised when you get the same in return.

thanks for showing your true colors everyone

Pity you had to show yours, unpleasant as they are.

i'll butt out now.

Good.

[colin@loomer]

Definitely not going to argue Max is perfect. It does do a few things right. It's documentation (when it works) is pretty good. Would love to have Max as a VST despite it's short comings.

That's absolutely the standard of documentation I'd like to achieve. There are a handful of technical books that, in my mind, absolutely nail how documentation should be done (Programming in Lua is another; Daniel Shiffman's Nature of Coding also), and these are what I'm aiming for. The module API reference is always available in the reference section of the properties, and you can also add your own documentation for any user-created macros or scripts.

One thing that I believe makes things a little simpler than, say, Max, is that inlets and outlets only do one thing. Where as Max may have a single inlet that, when sent different messages, would perform different actions, here we'd stick to one inlet per action. I suspect this way, you need to consult the documentation just that little bit less.

[woggle]

i took a lot of shit here in this thread

They gave you shit and then you took that shit and you made it your own

[atukao]

When outputting CV to hardware synths via a DC coupled interface, will !epoch be able to calibrate itself by listening to the synthesiser’s output signal to generate the appropriate pitch CV for the incoming MIDI notes?

[ThomasHelzle]

Just when I go away for some days all hell breaks lose here...

Awesome how even a troll can help things along sometimes

Great Screenshots, looks beautiful, non-overwhelming and easy on the eyes.

Like the idea about a different colour for the signal line - I think that would clarify things quite a bit and give the tree more structure visually, especially since they also have that specific function of being triggers and last-to-be-called entities.
Also good that the rainbow-coloured cables are out. They had me worried...

Order of things from right to left feels weird when I read it, but when I put it in context with the graphical flow, it guess I can live with it and as you say, there always is the order node.
One node system I worked with (can't remember which one - was it Thinking Particles in Cinema 4D?) had a system I found quite intuitive. You had a default order and on top of that you were able to assign specific priority numbers manually when needed. Not sure if that is needed here but that was my favourite solution.
The worst I ever saw in all my life is Reaktor when it comes to Midi and Events order. As far removed from intuitive as possibly can be.

I totally hated Max/PDs ways of dealing with Midi. So much so that selling Live Suite and M4L felt more like a relieve than a loss (Well, Bitwig also helped with that. Can't wait to see how they tackle the node topic).

I just worked on a very involved graphics job in Grasshopper for Rhino the last days. It's a node system for (mainly) creating procedural and generative geometry, lots of math, vectors, lists of points/curves/surfaces etc. involved. Very clear flow and they don't even have an order-of-events node or any issues in that department, it just works. Not sure how they deal with it internally.

Thanks for the updates and thoughts Colin!

Will be a great day when you finally release this!

Cheers,

Tom

[colin@loomer]

When outputting CV to hardware synths via a DC coupled interface, will !epoch be able to calibrate itself by listening to the synthesiser’s output signal to generate the appropriate pitch CV for the incoming MIDI notes?

It's on the roadmap, but won't make the initial release I'm afraid. There are various ways of scaling one range to another; I tend to use a map module, which maps one range onto another (same as the map function in Processing). In your case, I'd work out the required map range settings once by ear, and then create a macro for your particular hardware so you need never have to do it again.

And thanks again for your thoughts, Thomas. It was some comments from you - may have been PMs actually - that convinced me that some UI elements from earlier builds just didn't quite land. I've always been very impressed by your design work, so your feedback is always given due weighting.

I'm experimenting with left-to-right ordering now, and so far, it feels good. It took about 5 seconds to make the change, and then over half an hour to rewrite the unit-tests for the graph sorter: always the way! It's too early to absolutely say that this left-to-right ordering is preferable, but I'm definitely not hating it.

[atukao]

It's on the roadmap, but won't make the initial release I'm afraid. There are various ways of scaling one range to another; I tend to use a map module, which maps one range onto another (same as the map function in Processing). In your case, I'd work out the required map range settings once by ear, and then create a macro for your particular hardware so you need never have to do it again.

Good to know its on the roadmap, automatic calibration would be preferable for some VCO synths that tend to drift, needing to be periodically retuned mid project.

[ThomasHelzle]

And thanks again for your thoughts, Thomas. It was some comments from you - may have been PMs actually - that convinced me that some UI elements from earlier builds just didn't quite land. I've always been very impressed by your design work, so your feedback is always given due weighting.

You are very welcome.

Really nice and relaxing to look at. Also love the way you show the port names - there if you need them but not cluttering the GUI all the time.

And thanks a lot for your kind words regarding my work. I just re-coded, re-designed and restructured my whole website and it took ages, so I can actually relate quite well to all the emotional and technical stages one is going through in a big project - and mine was some magnitudes simpler compared to !Epoch.

Cheers,

Tom