Tone2 will release Icarus - 3D WaveTable Synthesizer

[Ingonator]

Icarus includes a "Supersaw" Unison mode that could replicate the famous Supersaw of the Roland JP-8000, at least the way the 7 waveforms are detuned. This mode works with all waveforms and for a proper replication of the Supersaw you would also need the proper Supersaw waveform that seems to be quite special compared to others.

I just created a Icarus wavetable based on 6 waveforms from the JP-8000 oscillator in Diva (also called "Digital Osc" there). The first waveform is that from the Supersaw (a single one) and others are Saw, Triangle, Square and 2 different Pulses.

Here is a downlaod for the wavetable:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... aves_1.zip

To use the Supersaw waveform properly you should use the "Supersaw" Unison mode (in the OSc) and use the "Detune" knob in the Osc to detune the Saws. Of course you could also check that waveform with the other Unison modes.

[leonalex]

Cool, 2 more JP8000 init sawtooth waves that I found somewhere online, I think from a real JP8000, saved as wavetable:

http://ge.tt/8PsUMtd2

[Ingonator]

Cool, 2 more JP8000 init sawtooth waves that I found somewhere online, I think from a real JP8000, saved as wavetable:

http://ge.tt/8PsUMtd2

This produces security warnings in Chrome and i will not disable those just to download this.

This is posted at that website in your link:

Dear user,

We have unfortunately been hit by a download ban, imposed on us by Google due to the fact that some malware files uploaded by our users escaped our ever-vigilant virus scanning algorithms.

We are working hard on bringing back our trust-ratings to a safe level to remove this ban, but meanwhile users, like yourself, using Google Chrome will be faced with a warning when downloading from our site.

[leonalex]

try this link (dropbox) (edit: fixed link) -->

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o0xkx3c1c7lur ... s.zip?dl=0

these ones have a bit of variation to them, good to have the Diva ones too!

[Ingonator]

try this link (dropbox) (edit: fixed link) -->

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o0xkx3c1c7lur ... s.zip?dl=0

these ones have a bit of variation to them, good to have the Diva ones too!

Many thanks,

the second from those was the Supersaw waveform. Those 3 WAV files were still samples and no single cycles so they could not be directly used as a single cycle wavefom in Icarus that way.
I had edited the Supersaw sample to get a single cycle and teh re-saved it in Icarus so it has a size of 2048 samples now and could be directly loaded as a single cycle in Icarus (also with the "Load Wavetable" feature).

Here is a download for the edited Supersaw waveform re-saved with Icarus:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... persaw.zip

That waveform seems to look and also sounds slightly differnt to that i got from Diva but it should be indeed close to the real one (which it of course should be if it is really done from the real synth).


UPDATE:
Here is an Icarus single cyle (re-saved in Icarus) based on Adam Szabo's JP6K:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... persaw.zip

Adam Szabo seemed to be the first to try properly replicating the JP-8000 supersaw in software (and others folowing later based their work on his) and his waveform should be indeed close to the real thing.


UPDATE:
With another try I was also able to get a Supersaw waveform from Diva closer to the JP8000 and JP6K ones just posted above. I also updated the other waveforms in the wavetable and also just updated the wavetable in the ZIP file posted at this page.

[leonalex]

I noticed on the Diva scope that the raw sawtooth has some movement in the waveform, I don't have the JP6K (on mac) to compare it to.

[OneOfManyPauls]

Real (and well emulated) analog waveforms always have movement.

This is why I'm not keen on using single waveform cycles when we have 256 waveforms per wavetable to capture some of that variation. that's where the character comes from.

[Ingonator]

I noticed on the Diva scope that the raw sawtooth has some movement in the waveform, I don't have the JP6K (on mac) to compare it to.

I just recorded a sample with some secomds of the JP6K supersw but did not really find movement there.

In Diva that movement in the oscilloscope is minimal compareed to that when using the detuned multiple Saws.

In Icarus when you use the raw waveform with teh Supersaw Unison mode and detuen the 7 Saws you get lots of "movement" too.
If you like in Icarus you could also use a random or Noise mod source (Oink and White Noise available in teh mid matrix) to slightly modulate the fine tuning.

The best way to use e.g. Pink Noisein the mod matrix is to fisrt route "Pink Noise" to "X:=Value" and then "Filter(X)" to the Fine tune (global or one Osc). You could then adjust the modulation with the amounts of both mod matrix entries.
The "Random" mod source is more simple to use but it uses differnt values if you press another note (or the same again) while the Noise also changes the value while holding a note.

[Ingonator]

Real (and well emulated) analog waveforms always have movement.

This is why I'm not keen on using single waveform cycles when we have 256 waveforms per wavetable to capture some of that variation. that's where the character comes from.

But the JP-8000 we are talking about is no analog synth and the Supersaw waveform is no analog waveform and there does not seem to be real movement there (also see my post above). There is enough movement when using the Supersaw waveform in combination with the Supersaw Unison mode and the 7 Saws being detuned.
Diva only emulates teh JP-8000 oscillators but not the rest of the synth and Diva uses analog filter models opposing to a fully digtal filter model so the results you get there do maybe not 100% nail the original digital synth.

Concerning always using 256 waveforms i have a differnt opinion but if this is how you work keep on using them. It is also a question of the size of the fxp preset files. A full 256 waves wavetable seems to use 1 MB while a single waveform only uses around 4 KB. If you use 3 Oscs with a full 256 wavetable the patch could be up to 3 MB big.

You could still get good results with few or less waveforms and the Fade knob at maximum which increases the interpolation quality between 2 waveforms. If you use teh "Half Size interpolated" feature in the editor it will remove each second waveform while it adds durther interpolation in the table. This is a simple way to reduce the size of a table.

[OneOfManyPauls]

the JP-8000 we are talking about is no analog synth

the jp-8000 is virtual analog isn't it? I've never studied the oscillators on it - but I'd think it odd if the oscillator waveforms didn't have analog style movement in a high end VA synth.

You could still get good results with few or less waveforms and the Fade knob at maximum which increases the interpolation quality between 2 waveforms

there's no better way to kill the character of sampled hardware waveforms than to use fade and other algorithmic processing. it rubs off the very edges that give the character in the first place

[chk071]

the JP-8000 we are talking about is no analog synth

the jp-8000 is virtual analog isn't it? I've never studied the oscillators on it - but I'd think it odd if the oscillator waveforms didn't have analog style movement in a high end VA synth.

The JP-8k has an internal high pass filter (like most VA's i believe), to avoid aliasing in the higher registers, so that will already alter the shape of the waveforms, depending on pitch, AFAIC.

[OneOfManyPauls]

actually, although I don't have a jp-8000 at hand, I do have a roland jd-xa which in addition to the true analog section has a supernatural VA engine which includes supersaw and I have looked at that before.

supersaws are multiple detuned saw waves - so there's no way you can capture that in a single cycle - as every one of the stacked saws in that "waveform" has its own cycle. may as well just capture a single saw cycle and use icarus's supersaw modes.

[Ingonator]

actually, although I don't have a jp-8000 at hand, I do have a roland jd-xa which in addition to the true analog section has a supernatural VA engine which includes supersaw and I have looked at that before.

supersaws are multiple detuned saw waves - so there's no way you can capture that in a single cycle - as every one of the stacked saws in that "waveform" has its own cycle. may as well just capture a single saw cycle and use icarus's supersaw modes.

Of course i know that but the "Supersaw" Unsion mode in Icarus only captures how the 7 waveforms of it are detuned and as it works with all waveforms it does not include the original waveform.
This is why i craeted single cycles of the single waveform that in combination with the Supersaw mode could sound like the real Supersaw or at least close to it. With a standard Saw waveform there is a quite obvious difference, especially in the low end, as the original Supersaw seemed to involve a HPF.
You could also check teh JP-4c Reaktor ensemble by Alex Shore that involves a HPF at the Oscillators used to create the Supersaw.

Besides that even with the real Supersaw you were able to use a single Saw without detuning which is how the samples for those single cycles were done.

[Ingonator]

Here is a link for the Bachelor Thesis of Adam Szabo (developer of JP6k) that is about analysis and recreating the original Supersaw:
https://www.nada.kth.se/utbildning/gruk ... _10131.pdf

This thesis also seemed to be used by others that tried to recreate the Supersaw in software.

Quote from the thesis about the HPF used for the waveform:

Research showed that oscillators used in the Super Saw are in fact saw oscillators, but the added
signal of the 7 waveforms goes through a high pass filter. A way to achieve such a waveform
without a high pass filter is through a wavetable oscillator. This method cannot be the one used by
the Super Saw, because a wavetable oscillator is band limited, and the oscillators found in the Super
Saw are not.

So instead of using the waveforms that already includes the HPF in Icarus you could also try to use a standard Sawtooth with a second filter (besides a LPF or other one) that invoves a HPF. The "HP Chain 6-48dB allows using a HPF with 6dB/oct up to 48dB/oct (using the Reso knob). If the result is really better this way than using the waveform that alraedy involves the HPF in a more or les proper way is another story.

[Ingonator]

I just combined the 3 versions of the single Supersaw waveform in a single wavetable:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... eforms.zip

The first waveform is from the JP-8000 sample, the second from JP6K and the 3rd from Diva.

As alraedy mentioned this is a single waveform so you will have to use it with the Supersaw Unsion mode (or if you like with another Unison mode like the Hypersaw etc.).

If you like you could add the INIT Sawtooth at the end of the table for comparison. Obviously the standard Saw includes a lot more low frequncies as the original Supersaw waveform seems to involve a HPF.


UPDATE:
Here is a 14 seconds sample/audio demo (WAV, 16-bit, 44.1 kHz) of the Supersaw waveform (first one from the table posted here) played with the Supüersaw Unison mode in Icarus at a Detune value of 60 (single note held, single Osc, full Cutoff, no effects):
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/532 ... emo_01.wav

To me it sounds close enough to a real Supersaw and teher is really more than enough "movement" there.

UPDATE:
Here is picture of a spectrum analyzer where left you see the distribution of the 7 Saws in the Supersaw Unison mode and right with the Hypersaw 7 mode wher the Saws are almost evenly distibuted (both seem to be a normal behavior for those):

Supersaw + Hypersaw7_Detuning_Spectrum_1.png