Feature Request : MPE support

[Restless]

... everything U-HE minus Hive

Shame on you!
BTW I think we might have aimed it too precisely at EDM - Hive is really an allrounder, and by far the best synth we have for effect parameter modulation. Thinking about alternative skin(s)...

That's probably part of it. I don't do EDM and I wasn't a particular fan of the GUI either. My vision is not great and I really appreciate VST GUIs where you can easily tell each section apart. Hive didn't seem to be laid out like that. Truth be told I haven't even demoed it, as I've had very little time for music latelly.

The sound demos might have put me off a little as well, not really my cup of tea.

Anyway, untill U-HE implements full MPE support I am not buying anymore of your synths (or anyone's else for that matter), as I want to save up for a seaboard rise.

I will obviously take the free upgrade to Zebra 3 though . Looking forward to that.

[Restless]

@nilhartman, @Restless: Aalto while nice may be considered a yet another synth, but Kaivo from MadronaLabs is something else and unbelievable - nothing like this from u-he and not sure who would be the competition at all!

Kaivo seems a lot more interesting and different alright. I might get that at some point, after I get the seaboard rise.

[HHaynes]

The pitch-bend can work correctly, at least with the Roli keyboard. Just set the pitch-bend range to 24 in the Roli dashboard. Problem solved. The CC74 issue still remains for now.

I have both Bitwig Studio (which has its own issues with the ROLI Rise instruments - such as *not* passing through left-hand MIDI controller data) and Cubase. With the latter host I use a MIDI Transformer to change the Brightness control from MPE (MIDI CC# 074) to Expression (MIDI CC# 011). I wouldn't say "problem solved" if you're already using Expression, but it's a workaround that works for me - since I am still in the auditioning phase.

Today I will be fixing the left-hand MIDI control pass-through issue with the ROLI device script in Bitwig Studio, and while I'm at it will be taking a look at how mapping might be done (likely in the device script parameter setting "under the hood").

This wouldn't be the cleanest option - as fxpansion's Strobe 2 handles CC# 074 "out of the box" - but I'll play with it and see if I can make it workable. (maybe a way to map MIDI CCs in Bitwig Studio on the track level - I'm as new to that host as I am to HIVE, Strobe 2 and the ROLI Seaboard RISE 25)

[HHaynes]

I have both Bitwig Studio (which has its own issues with the ROLI Rise instruments - such as *not* passing through left-hand MIDI controller data)

FYI - I just fixed this in Bitwig Studio after studying up on the API a bit. It turns out that the RISE device control script was based off of the GRAND script. The larger keyboard doesn't have the left-hand controls, so the "mask" set to allow certain ranges of MIDI data through (such as sustain, CC74, etc) didn't allow from the control ranges that are often sent by the LH controls. So I simply added to "filters" which allow the upper range of MIDI CCs to pass through unaffected. See the highlighted entries in the screen shot below.

There's probably a more elegant way to do this, but it's a minimally invasive way to make the RISE work with the "stock" device control script. I want to do some pressure mapping as the data flow from the keyboard into the app, so I'm creating a new device controller with those added bits (!) of functionality. Once that's done I'll put it up in a public GitHub repo - for those that are interested in downloading and using it.

[thetechnobear]

We'll get a Linnstrument shortly which I've set out for myself to learn.

Roger had the booth next to us at Superbooth and he was quite happy with our support already, but I guess we can add the few missing pieces (+/-48 semi PB, Controller 74) without too much trouble. Not sure about Ch 1 or 16 being some sort of "master" - that sounds a bit messy to me.

Do you have your linnstrument enjoying it?

any further thoughts on the +/- 48 PB/CC74.
personally, I don't care too much about the channel 1 master... though I do use it for breath and sustain, which are global controls.... not sure how those would be handled?

[deastman]

We'll get a Linnstrument shortly which I've set out for myself to learn.

Roger had the booth next to us at Superbooth and he was quite happy with our support already, but I guess we can add the few missing pieces (+/-48 semi PB, Controller 74) without too much trouble. Not sure about Ch 1 or 16 being some sort of "master" - that sounds a bit messy to me.

Do you have your linnstrument enjoying it?

any further thoughts on the +/- 48 PB/CC74.
personally, I don't care too much about the channel 1 master... though I do use it for breath and sustain, which are global controls.... not sure how those would be handled?

Right, like on the Seaboard RISE, the xy pad puts out cc messages which are not specific to any given note. So you either send that message to every channel, or to a master channel for global controls. I suppose the eventual MPE standard will be what it will be. For now, I'd be happy with the expanded PB range and cc 74.

[Echoes in the Attic]

We'll get a Linnstrument shortly which I've set out for myself to learn.

Roger had the booth next to us at Superbooth and he was quite happy with our support already, but I guess we can add the few missing pieces (+/-48 semi PB, Controller 74) without too much trouble. Not sure about Ch 1 or 16 being some sort of "master" - that sounds a bit messy to me.

Didn't notice this before but this is great news. Any progress on the +/-48 pitch and CC74?

Also, is there any way that when in duophonic mode, the two notes could be on separate midi channels? I just think being able to pitch bend independently in duophonic mode (with ring mod specifically) would be amazing.

[SuperFly76]

a quick 'bump' on this...

I know its still not out of draft, but now there are implementations in hardware for Eigenharps, Continuum, Linnstrument, Soundplane, Seaboards.

as i mentioned in the post, Im not so worried about the switch to MPE mode, nor the automatic pitchbend range selection (via NRPNs),
simply support for CC74 (supplementing CC11 is fine) and an increased pitchbend range. (+/- 48)
with the current VpC implementation of u-he synths, the above would work for all DAWs,
even Bigwigs per note expression would work (it has a 'force MPE mode' on it)

as a fellow software developer I understand wanting to make changes once, based on a spec, but sometimes the real world moves faster than standards committees, if we wait for MPE to be approved, its highly likely we will be bumping this thread in another 6 months, and we will be no further forward...

YES PLEASE! U-He synths are so close. I'd really like to be able to use the Y axis modulation like in the Bitiwig touch screen keyboard to control u-he synth parameters.

Also wondering if Zebra will be supported like Diva and Bazille?

A big plus one for me too! Really want to use uhe synths with Bitwig's onscreen touch keyboard in force MPE mode. The lack of +/-48 pitchbend makes it unusable with all uhe synths. We are so close! Really want to use these synths with my surface pro and be able to do MPE expression and pitch slides on stage.

As it is, I'm limited to using external midi controllers. Really want to ditch those and go all touchscreen. I love using the animoog on stage. Was hoping that bitwig with the touch interface + uhe synths would replace my ipad on stage.

[SuperFly76]

We'll get a Linnstrument shortly which I've set out for myself to learn.

Roger had the booth next to us at Superbooth and he was quite happy with our support already, but I guess we can add the few missing pieces (+/-48 semi PB, Controller 74) without too much trouble. Not sure about Ch 1 or 16 being some sort of "master" - that sounds a bit messy to me.

(underline added by me)

Yeah! So cool. I'm going to jump up and dance on my table when this comes out! I'll take a vid and post it if you want! Going to be so happy with this live rig when this comes out.

[killmaster]

anything special you need to do to get Bazille to work with MPE? I have force MPE turned on in Bitwig. I'm not getting pitch slides in any of the patches I try...

[killmaster]

anything special you need to do to get Bazille to work with MPE? I have force MPE turned on in Bitwig. I'm not getting pitch slides in any of the patches I try...

Think I answered my own question. Seems to work right out of the box using setup specified on Roger's Linnstrument site!! I understand now that this is now necessarily considered MPE at this point...

[Echoes in the Attic]

Before you guys go ahead and add proper mpe support, I just want to describe the proper vs improper way to handle mono and legato modes with mpe. I've noticed that some synths get it right and some don't.

With mpe, a synth should still be able to play mono. Even though a note cutting off a previous note will be on a separate channel, the synth should still cut off previous notes and have proper legato functioning. The separate channel is still important so that if you glide one note and cut that off with another note, the second note doesn't start with a pitch bend (because it has its own pitch bend value). Same for other expressions.

An example of a synth that does this correctly is synthmaster. In polyphonic mode, it responds polyphonically as it should and when in mono mode, that works correctly, only allowing one voice, but still keeping the note expressions separate.

An example that fully supports mpe but doesn't get that right is Falcon. In mono mode you still get polyphony because the notes are on separate channels and don't cut each other off. U-he synths also don't have proper working mono mode when an mpe controller is sending in multiple channels. But I understand mpe isn't quite supported yet.

So I just wanted to put that issue on your radar so you can do a proper implementation and so that mono modes still work with mpe.

Thanks!

[igoramos]

In Bitwig, I can use an inline midi monitor and it shows notes and aftertouch messages coming into the track from my Seaboard RISE 49, but no CC1 mod wheel messages from the slider (in my case the Glide slider) that is clearly assigned in Dashboard as CC1: Modulation Wheel.

I see mod wheel messages coming into the track from my other keyboards. Is this the issue what has been discussed here? I'm not a programmer and not versed in how midi works on a nuts and bolts level.

The other odd thing is that when I reset the RISE in Dashboard, the default assignment to that slider (CC107) does come into the track, but no other CC I assign them to does.

Very frustrating to say the least. Is there a workaround for this?

thanks for any help! Just got my RISE a few days ago and already spent many hours trying to figure out what's wrong here...

IA

[Urs]

With mpe, a synth should still be able to play mono.

That would be a bug in the MPE standard then. It's called Multi-dimensional Polyphonic Expression for a reason.

We won't support it because it adds yet another dimension of "wtf is going on" to an already complex issue. It's however easily achieved with our stuff by setting the MPE controller device to 1 channel only.

[Echoes in the Attic]

With mpe, a synth should still be able to play mono.

That would be a bug in the MPE standard then. It's called Multi-dimensional Polyphonic Expression for a reason.

We won't support it because it adds yet another dimension of "wtf is going on" to an already complex issue. It's however easily achieved with our stuff by setting the MPE controller device to 1 channel only.

No that won't work because then it will get the different pitch bend signals confused as it will send them on the same channel, as I tried to explain. The different pitch bends have to send in separate channels so that bending one does not bend another when playing legato, overlapping style. Or else it gets all glitchy.

Like I said, other synths have properly figured out wtf is going on here and implemented it properly so I was hoping u-he could as well. Allowing MPE to play mono is not a bug obviously, it is very deliberate. There are times you do not want overlapping notes (sampled or synth bass for example) where it is still important to have separate control signals for the pitch bend and timbre modulation. So yes it is called polyphonic expression for a reason, because the expression is polyphonic, even when the voicing is mono. That is my point.