KVR Audio

chilly7 · Post by **chilly7** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:54 pm

What about Madrona Labs Kaivo?
http://madronalabs.com/products/kaivo

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:53 pm

Welp, this will be like the third time I've commented on this, but there is a whole lot of confusion regarding what granular is on this forum. There are different types of granular. A granular filter is basically an effect. It almost always uses a sample as an oscillator, then feeds it through a granulating algorithm (a grain filter). Grainular synthesis is a grain oscillator. There are very few examples of this in history. Maybe three or four attempts I can think of. Csound, maxMSP, I think there was a tone2 one that used a grain oscillator, and then there was Nuclear. The rest, as far as I'm aware are grain filtering affects, including camel.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:05 pm

Dasheesh wrote:Welp, this will be like the third time I've commented on this, but there is a whole lot of confusion regarding what granular is on this forum. There are different types of granular. A granular filter is basically an effect. It almost always uses a sample as an oscillator, then feeds it through a granulating algorithm (a grain filter). Grainular synthesis is a grain oscillator. There are very few examples of this in history. Maybe three or four attempts I can think of. Csound, maxMSP, I think there was a tone2 one that used a grain oscillator, and then there was Nuclear. The rest, as far as I'm aware are grain filtering affects, including camel.

The Mangle is a true granular synthesizer as far as I'm concerned for all practical purposes.

Dasheesh · Post by **Dasheesh** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:10 pm

wagtunes wrote:
Dasheesh wrote:Welp, this will be like the third time I've commented on this, but there is a whole lot of confusion regarding what granular is on this forum. There are different types of granular. A granular filter is basically an effect. It almost always uses a sample as an oscillator, then feeds it through a granulating algorithm (a grain filter). Grainular synthesis is a grain oscillator. There are very few examples of this in history. Maybe three or four attempts I can think of. Csound, maxMSP, I think there was a tone2 one that used a grain oscillator, and then there was Nuclear. The rest, as far as I'm aware are grain filtering affects, including camel.
The Mangle is a true granular synthesizer as far as I'm concerned for all practical purposes.

well, you feed a sample through a grain algorithm. But if that's the way you want to see it "for all practical purposes", fair enough.

Kalamata Kid · Post by **Kalamata Kid** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:18 pm

It seems that Granite is a VSTfx
Is the mangle a VSTi or a VSTfx?
Padshop Pro is a VSTi

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:31 pm

Dasheesh wrote:
wagtunes wrote:
Dasheesh wrote:Welp, this will be like the third time I've commented on this, but there is a whole lot of confusion regarding what granular is on this forum. There are different types of granular. A granular filter is basically an effect. It almost always uses a sample as an oscillator, then feeds it through a granulating algorithm (a grain filter). Grainular synthesis is a grain oscillator. There are very few examples of this in history. Maybe three or four attempts I can think of. Csound, maxMSP, I think there was a tone2 one that used a grain oscillator, and then there was Nuclear. The rest, as far as I'm aware are grain filtering affects, including camel.
The Mangle is a true granular synthesizer as far as I'm concerned for all practical purposes.

well, you feed a sample through a grain algorithm. But if that's the way you want to see it "for all practical purposes", fair enough.

What matters is the end result. Can you distinguish, with your ears, the difference between a true granular synth and something like The Mangle?

If you can, please point out any "true" granular synth being sold today and I will buy it on the spot.

dformd · Post by **dformd** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:33 pm

chilly7 wrote:What about Madrona Labs Kaivo?
http://madronalabs.com/products/kaivo

+1

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:39 pm

Is this what you're talking about?

http://www.hamburg-audio.de/index.php?l ... free+trial

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:46 pm

Well, I downloaded the Nuklear demo and it actually sounds decent. Problem is, the GUI is so small it's unusable. I don't understand. The system specs say minimum screen resolution of 1024. This thing doesn't even come close to filling it up and with so many controls and such a small interface, you can't make out anything.

Shame, because I would have actually considered getting it.

starflakeprj · Post by **starflakeprj** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:47 pm

Kalamata Kid wrote:It seems that Granite is a VSTfx
Is the mangle a VSTi or a VSTfx?
Padshop Pro is a VSTi

All three of them are VSTi

starflakeprj · Post by **starflakeprj** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:47 pm

*Double*

deastman · Post by **deastman** » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:59 pm

Dasheesh wrote:Welp, this will be like the third time I've commented on this, but there is a whole lot of confusion regarding what granular is on this forum. There are different types of granular. A granular filter is basically an effect. It almost always uses a sample as an oscillator, then feeds it through a granulating algorithm (a grain filter). Grainular synthesis is a grain oscillator. There are very few examples of this in history. Maybe three or four attempts I can think of. Csound, maxMSP, I think there was a tone2 one that used a grain oscillator, and then there was Nuclear. The rest, as far as I'm aware are grain filtering affects, including camel.

This is all nonsense. A granular "system", for lack of a better word, involves random access to a sample buffer, and short snippets or grains or samples are played back at variable rates, often with short amplitude envelopes and other controls. The sample buffer in question can be filled from a delay line in real time, continually refreshing it's contents, or it can be loaded from a file or other fixed buffer. Calling either one of those a "granular filter" would be a bit of a stretch. I suppose if you look at a granular delay line as a black box which alters the incoming audio, you could try to argue that it sometimes filters the input in some way, but I'm still not buying it.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:22 am

Dasheesh wrote:Welp, this will be like the third time I've commented on this, but there is a whole lot of confusion regarding what granular is on this forum.

Yes there is.

There are different types of granular.

Yes there are.

A granular filter is basically an effect. It almost always uses a sample as an oscillator, then feeds it through a granulating algorithm (a grain filter).

That's an entirely circular explanation, and its of a term ('granular/grain filter') which doesnt really ever get used in the literature. I suspect what you're talking about is what is actually categorised as granulation, which is effectively a process applied to an audiostream. However, whilst implementations in a few plugins might use samples as sources of that audiostream, the definition of the process does not require that.

Grainular synthesis is a grain oscillator.

This is basically a circular definition again. But in the literature (check your Roads etc), I would point out that the definition of a grain oscillator (or as he prefers 'granular generator') encompasses all sorts of algorithms, from those which directly calculate grains, those which utilise wavetables, or even those which utilise single-cycles from a sample etc etc.
However, 'grain oscillator' is not the be all and end all of 'granular synthesis', as Roads makes clear. Granulation is included.

There are very few examples of this in history. Maybe three or four attempts I can think of. Csound, maxMSP, I think there was a tone2 one that used a grain oscillator, and then there was Nuclear. The rest, as far as I'm aware are grain filtering affects, including camel.

There are actually very many examples of this in history, from Xenakis to Roads and onwards. Pure grain generators are generally not as common as granulation as a method of generating audio in modern plugins, because it generally has exceptionally high control data requirements compared to many other methods of synthesis (cf hundreds or thousands of grains per sample, all being shaped individually, as well as groups of grains (and groups of groups) being controlled as larger structures) and generally a more abstract result, so yes, granulation is more commonly utilised in plugins.

However if you're going to split hairs over this stuff, something which seems to be purely for the sake of it, you really should split them properly, which you've rather failed to do. Academically, historically, and in 'layman useage', these, collectively, though, are all under the banner of granular synthesis, as are many other far less common variations, as per Roads. Microsounds, chapter 3, if you care to check.

Sampleconstruct · Post by **Sampleconstruct** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:39 am

Here are some of my tutorials on granular synthesis:

and one for Falcon:

Lejurai · Post by **Lejurai** » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:59 am

Kalamata Kid wrote:It seems that Granite is a VSTfx

No it's not. Just load a sample and play it from your keyboard.

Kalamata Kid wrote:Is the mangle a VSTi or a VSTfx?

VSTi. Load a sample and play it.

Kalamata Kid wrote:Padshop Pro is a VSTi

Yup.

And to add one to that list, one SUPERB sampler which has granular mode is

http://glitchmachines.com/products/polygon/

*edit*

https://www.ohmforce.com/ViewProduct.do?p=Symptohm <- Also great.

Recommed me Granular Synthesizer