FR - TurboEQ Output Gain

[vectorwarrior]

Any chance this can be added? There's no way to make up for volume changes caused by the EQ.

[Boone777]

I have problems with Turbo EQ in MXXX. My so cool Windows 10 did an automatic update and I suspect it's the culprit.

I tried to reproduce did'nt work.

I have crashes in Reaper while A\B' ing between 3 different EQs with a 5db boost around 5k. MPI 550, Meve7301 and Passive were used.

Also suddenly I opened another instance of MXXX with TurboEQ preloaded (FX chain in Reaper) and I have GUI bugs too: lines in the meter, text is weird too.

[jmg8]

I have problems with Turbo EQ in MXXX. My so cool Windows 10 did an automatic update and I suspect it's the culprit.

I tried to reproduce did'nt work.

I have crashes in Reaper while A\B' ing between 3 different EQs with a 5db boost around 5k. MPI 550, Meve7301 and Passive were used.

Also suddenly I opened another instance of MXXX with TurboEQ preloaded (FX chain in Reaper) and I have GUI bugs too: lines in the meter, text is weird too.

You should really start a new thread for this.
However I have tried to reproduce as you described, but I cannot. It all seems fine to me.

[Boone777]

OOps sorry for Hijacking the thread was left open in my browser and I did this in a hurry could you move this please Vojtech ?

[spencerlee]

You can adjust the input level. Which is the right way to do it.
If you are using negative eq you bring up the input.
If you are using positive eq it is absolutely the correct way to do it.
Say you are adding 20db at 100hz. You output is possibly 20db higher. This could leave to severe distortion. So it is always necessary to drop the input level to get the correct gain distribution.
Spencer

[mabian]

I think that every eq should have an output gain control to help with gain staging. Input gain for me is useful but cannot replace effectively output gain.

So, this is a good FR and I'm surprised TurboEQ doesn't have it.

- Mario

[vectorwarrior]

You can adjust the input level. Which is the right way to do it.
If you are using negative eq you bring up the input.
If you are using positive eq it is absolutely the correct way to do it.
Say you are adding 20db at 100hz. You output is possibly 20db higher. This could leave to severe distortion. So it is always necessary to drop the input level to get the correct gain distribution.
Spencer

Except we don't live in an analog world anymore. The plugins run at 32 bit floating point (maybe 64). You can max all the gain settings in turbo eq, plus add the full input gain... Which according to your comment would destroy the audio... But add an MUtility afterwards to bring the gain down below 0db and nothing will be distorting. In a modern day daw the only way you'll get distortion due to gain staging is if you don't bring the signal down below 0db before the absolute final output.

Anywho, you're right though in that you can use the input control. It's just highly unusual to not have an output control in a melda plugin.

[spencerlee]

Maybe Vojtech could tell us the maths of would happen if you maxed out 4 peak filters without dropping the input level.
Spencer

[vectorwarrior]

Maybe Vojtech could tell us the maths of would happen if you maxed out 4 peak filters without dropping the input level.
Spencer

Well dont take my word for it, try it I just ran a test putting a sound through a TurboEQ and cranked the gain on the four peak filters. Then followed it with another TurboEQ, identical except the second instance does the inverse gain for each of the peak filters. The output is essentially identical to the input (some phase shift is to be expected). The only way you're going to get distortion out of this EQ is if you use the saturation (which is off by default). As I stated above, in floating point audio you can go way above 0dB, it doesn't have the brick wall at 0dB like fixed point does (24/16 bit)... you just need to ensure the audio is below zero before sending to the D-A converter as that doesn't work in floating point.

But regardless... an output gain would be nice just for gain staging but it's not a deal breaker.

[pone]

But don't dismiss the possibility that some daws with some settings will act like an analogue mixer and clip at 0 on all tracks. A 32bit floating point daw had 96db of room above 0 if I recall correctly.

[pumafred]

And I understand some analog emulation plugins also are designed to work with analogue levels.

[alexis1]

And I understand some analog emulation plugins also are designed to work with analogue levels.

True, including all/most UAD-2.

[MeldaProduction]

Ok, so conclusion here, which many of you already know : it does NOT matter what levels are you working with in digital if there is NO nonlinear processing involved. MTurboEQ tries to be as linear as possible, the only exception is saturation, which indeed depends on the input levels and simulates the analog behaviour. But you will hardly need a dedicated control for output gain just because of saturation.

So, if you are not using saturation, then input gain = output gain.

[mabian]

Ok, so conclusion here, which many of you already know : it does NOT matter what levels are you working with in digital if there is NO nonlinear processing involved. MTurboEQ tries to be as linear as possible, the only exception is saturation, which indeed depends on the input levels and simulates the analog behaviour. But you will hardly need a dedicated control for output gain just because of saturation.

So, if you are not using saturation, then input gain = output gain.

I think that *every* plugin that can cause level changes in its processing should have an output gain knob.

It's not only about gain staging, it's also to help preventing our ear/brain to be fooled by loudness when judging the changes we are doing to our tracks in A/B comparison...

- Mario

[MeldaProduction]

For that we have AGC . Sorry, but we probably to agree on disagree. I don't think that output gain is needed if it does the same job as input gain. Not mentioning that adding a gain plugin afterwards if you believe you needed for any reason is very simple.