All this discussion about the possibility of doing VST under a GPL license is interesting, but I wonder if it makes sense to do a VST using JUCE ... apart from the GUI, I can't see why it would be much more simpler to write a VST using JUCE instead of raw C++ ?
It seems to me that JUCE is more suited to write hosts that plugins isn't it ?
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- Chief Tracktioneer
- Topic Starter
- 532 posts since 14 Nov, 2002 from London
Why are there 10 pages of utter wiffle here about the legality of writing VSTs with Juce?? Look, it's really not complicated - let me explain it again, very, very simply:
- There are only two parties involved here, Steinberg and me.
- Steinberg don't mind you using their stuff if you sign their license, which is free.
- I don't mind you using my stuff as long as you give away YOUR code (not Steinberg's) under the GPL (or bribe me).
That's it. It's as simple as that. Honestly.
- There are only two parties involved here, Steinberg and me.
- Steinberg don't mind you using their stuff if you sign their license, which is free.
- I don't mind you using my stuff as long as you give away YOUR code (not Steinberg's) under the GPL (or bribe me).
That's it. It's as simple as that. Honestly.
yes - the GUI is the whole point. If you're trying to write a plugin that you want to compile as a PC VST, Mac VST, DX plugin, Audio Unit, etc., you don't want to re-write the same GUI 5 times, so you need some kind of cross-platform GUI library, which is what Juce is. I'm sorry I suggested it now!apart from the GUI, I can't see why it would be much more simpler to write a VST using JUCE instead of raw C++ ?
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Karbon L. Forms Karbon L. Forms https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=29033
- KVRian
- 1414 posts since 10 Jun, 2004 from Inverness, Scotland
Jules said "utter wiffle"
Far too polite of you Jules! I've been using stronger language to describe this thread myself.
Far too polite of you Jules! I've been using stronger language to describe this thread myself.
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"Hell is other People" J.P.Sartre
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"Hell is other People" J.P.Sartre
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35444 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
jules Why are there 10 pages of utter wiffle here about the legality of writing VSTs with Juce??
Because its not as straighforward as it seems, unfortunately.
Look, it's really not complicated - let me explain it again, very, very simply:
But is is complicated. Honestly. If it was dead simple, no-one would be fussed. Nobody's trying to cause problems for people here; we're trying to ensure that those problems cant happen.
- There are only two parties involved here, Steinberg and me.
But the licensing potentially affects three or more. You, Steinberg, any developer basing their code directly on JUCE and the VST SDK, and anyone deriving code from them...
- Steinberg don't mind you using their stuff if you sign their license, which is free.
Its 'free' as in zero-cost. But its not free as per Stallman. This is part of the SDK license:
And that condition of having to sign a license to use the VST-SDK is another license conflict, specifically with the 'other conditions' clause of the GPL...
- I don't mind you using my stuff as long as you give away YOUR code (not Steinberg's) under the GPL (or bribe me).
Thats fine, but can you explicitly state that in the license? Because if its not explicit, ie you just say 'its under the GPL, end of story' then its going to cause problems. Honest.
That's it. It's as simple as that. Honestly.
I wish that were true, but there are at least two significant incompatibilities between the licenses, and to conform to the GPL license you have to breach Steinberg's license terms, and vice versa...
It may be that Steinberg dont care if their license is breached under these conditions. However if they do, or if they change their minds and start to, then there really would be a problem.
Because its not as straighforward as it seems, unfortunately.
Look, it's really not complicated - let me explain it again, very, very simply:
But is is complicated. Honestly. If it was dead simple, no-one would be fussed. Nobody's trying to cause problems for people here; we're trying to ensure that those problems cant happen.
- There are only two parties involved here, Steinberg and me.
But the licensing potentially affects three or more. You, Steinberg, any developer basing their code directly on JUCE and the VST SDK, and anyone deriving code from them...
- Steinberg don't mind you using their stuff if you sign their license, which is free.
Its 'free' as in zero-cost. But its not free as per Stallman. This is part of the SDK license:
'Using' is one thing. Redistribution is another. Steinberg specifically forbid redistribution of VST interface 'technology' (ie the SDK code) to another party. So if I sign the license, that means that any code (not compiled software) I derive from theirs is not redistributable to someone else. The GPL specifically requires that I have to make that code available, hence there's a license conflict.The Licensee has no permission to sell, licence, give-away and/or distribute the VST PlugIn Interface technology or parts of it in anyway, on any medium, including the Internet, to any other person, including sub-licensors of the Licensee or companies where the Licensee has any involvement. This includes re-working this specification, or reverse-engineering any products based upon this specification.
And that condition of having to sign a license to use the VST-SDK is another license conflict, specifically with the 'other conditions' clause of the GPL...
- I don't mind you using my stuff as long as you give away YOUR code (not Steinberg's) under the GPL (or bribe me).
Thats fine, but can you explicitly state that in the license? Because if its not explicit, ie you just say 'its under the GPL, end of story' then its going to cause problems. Honest.
That's it. It's as simple as that. Honestly.
I wish that were true, but there are at least two significant incompatibilities between the licenses, and to conform to the GPL license you have to breach Steinberg's license terms, and vice versa...
It may be that Steinberg dont care if their license is breached under these conditions. However if they do, or if they change their minds and start to, then there really would be a problem.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35444 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Deed quoth and I'm sure your API can have far more applications than writing plugins 
If the JUCE license can be amended such that it explicitly states that any code section which derives from both JUCE and the VST-SDK need not have the VST-SDK code redistributed with it in source code format, then everything should be fine for VST plugins.
If the JUCE license can be amended such that it explicitly states that any code section which derives from both JUCE and the VST-SDK need not have the VST-SDK code redistributed with it in source code format, then everything should be fine for VST plugins.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- KVRian
- 742 posts since 22 Jun, 2004
I say again...
Paulleaving aside the legalities, has anyone yet found a way of making this work with a VST? Cos if not the legal issue is of no concequence.
__________________________
Paul Chana
Senior Software Engineer
FXpansion Audio UK Ltd
Paul Chana
Senior Software Engineer
FXpansion Audio UK Ltd
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- KVRAF
- 1718 posts since 3 Sep, 2003
Here is what Audacitys developers make of it:
http://advogato.org/person/mbrubeck/diary.html?start=63
http://advogato.org/person/mbrubeck/diary.html?start=63
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- Beware the Quoth
- 35444 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair
Someone else bitten by the same issue.
Dont forget, it is the explicit intention of the GPL to prevent intermingling with non-Free (as in Stallman) code.
And its just occurred to me that since Jules has utilised other GPL'd code, he may not actually be able to waiver use with the VST-SDK at all...
Dont forget, it is the explicit intention of the GPL to prevent intermingling with non-Free (as in Stallman) code.
And its just occurred to me that since Jules has utilised other GPL'd code, he may not actually be able to waiver use with the VST-SDK at all...
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
My mum is a lawyer (back in the UK), so I grew up with tales of people suddenly finding out that the "legal waffle" they cheerfully ignored at some distant time in their life had come back to cost them -- occassionally dearly.whyterabbyt wrote:Someone else bitten by the same issue.
Anyone who signs an agreement without taking the time to read or understand that agreement is setting themselves up for a potentially nasty experience. If unsure take legal advice (contrary to popular myth, there are decent lawyers who will give you upfront advice without charging an arm and a leg for it).
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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- KVRAF
- 3364 posts since 16 Feb, 2004 from atop a katamari
all these statements raise logical conflicts between licenses, and i suppose that it should perhaps be looked into,
however, it's still perfectly acceptable to just use the library and try making something. if i had time i'd just get cracking and attempt making a VST plugin using JUCE to see what happened. unfortunately i don't, so i can't really. it would be really great if someone just tried something!
if they made something ace then i guess jules could 'sell' the library (or a version of the library) under a different license to that person, and they could release it without having to give the source.
i'm sure some happy result will occur at some point with the licenses. we may aswell make the most of the libraries if they are useful to us. if they're really useful then surely they're most likely worth jules' fee?
however, it's still perfectly acceptable to just use the library and try making something. if i had time i'd just get cracking and attempt making a VST plugin using JUCE to see what happened. unfortunately i don't, so i can't really. it would be really great if someone just tried something!
if they made something ace then i guess jules could 'sell' the library (or a version of the library) under a different license to that person, and they could release it without having to give the source.
i'm sure some happy result will occur at some point with the licenses. we may aswell make the most of the libraries if they are useful to us. if they're really useful then surely they're most likely worth jules' fee?
Kick, punch, it's all in the mind.
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- KVRian
- 679 posts since 6 Aug, 2004 from Cyberspace
I agree Haydxn 
What about using this libruary to add things to Trackton? The way filters works in Trackton is pretty amazing. Why not use this libruary to add a video editor or a macro recorder player. VST is pretty amazing but how often do host developers give you the tools to change something? Let Trackton deal with VST and the developers can use Juice to make something cool. Alot of peeps have said they dont like the colour of Trackton for instance (why I dont know) what about using Juice to make a skinning program?
What about using this libruary to add things to Trackton? The way filters works in Trackton is pretty amazing. Why not use this libruary to add a video editor or a macro recorder player. VST is pretty amazing but how often do host developers give you the tools to change something? Let Trackton deal with VST and the developers can use Juice to make something cool. Alot of peeps have said they dont like the colour of Trackton for instance (why I dont know) what about using Juice to make a skinning program?
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- KVRian
- 679 posts since 6 Aug, 2004 from Cyberspace
I just had another look at this...Its pretty awsome...Even for a non superstar programmer like me
You lot can all bicker Im going to make something
Can I use visual Basic with this?
You lot can all bicker Im going to make something
Can I use visual Basic with this?
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- KVRAF
- 16154 posts since 2 Dec, 2003 from Nashville, TN
Jules,
Please don't think we're ungrateful. I know I'm not. The news of Juce actually got me really excited. I've been reading less on C++ and getting sidetracked. But this made me pick up my book again and start learning more so I can use this wonderful tool. I'm still pretty much a beginner at programming, so I don't even totally understand everything on how to use Juce yet, but I can't wait until I do.
I hope we can get a set answer for all this so every time a Juce related topic is raised, the license issue isn't raised with it. And trust me, if I could, I'd be using it NOW to write something. Oh, well. Back to my book! Thank you VERY much Jules for Juce. Please keep it in developement. Cheers!
Koolkeys
Please don't think we're ungrateful. I know I'm not. The news of Juce actually got me really excited. I've been reading less on C++ and getting sidetracked. But this made me pick up my book again and start learning more so I can use this wonderful tool. I'm still pretty much a beginner at programming, so I don't even totally understand everything on how to use Juce yet, but I can't wait until I do.
I hope we can get a set answer for all this so every time a Juce related topic is raised, the license issue isn't raised with it. And trust me, if I could, I'd be using it NOW to write something. Oh, well. Back to my book! Thank you VERY much Jules for Juce. Please keep it in developement. Cheers!
Koolkeys