Waves Vocal Rider ($69) vs. MAutoVolume

[steve2KVR]

...indeed, this has been talked over before, here and elsewhere...the consensus seemed to be that, although looking good on first glance, not very workable in the real world...my conclusion as well...fwiw.../s~

[alexis1]

Alexis,
As I recall, Vojtech did not remove that feature out of a whim, but because it did not work well. He explained it somewhere in this forum.

Hi pumafred!

Yes, I remember that V. did say that. Here's hoping he chooses to get it working, it's a great selling point for the other two competing products (and was actually in MAutoVolume when I bought it).

I never did understand whether V. could not get it working well because of fixable coding issues, or whether he thought the idea itself was non-workable (for reasons I never did understand if he detailed or not). I know when I tried it, the automation curves were often not even in the same zip code compared to what would be done manually.

Anyway, forward with what we have!

[MeldaProduction]

I exlained it many times, so last time : many host have problems processing too much data, many hosts are very inaccurate when it comes to automation (e.g. Logic seems like it uses 16bit precision or something...). It generally lowered audio quality due to its low accuracy. Automation is just designed for human movements, which are slow and inaccurate, not computer movements, which are fast and accurate.

[JoMas]

Hey guys
I am a bit confused. Like most of us, I've always used compressors to tame the dynamics of my vocals, plus some manual gain riding (usually gain riding before compression, and by gain riding I mean very gentle, very broad strokes, not to alter the envelope of the sound in any way).
I am looking for something to automate this traditional slow, broad, gentle manual gain riding. Is it MAV the tool for it? After reading here and there, I am not so sure. Here's why. If, as MELDA says, the DAW automation is too slow and imprecise to work well, it means that MAV does (or ... can do) some pretty fast, precise gain riding. Which is not what manual gain riding is (slow, broad). It seems to me that what MAV does looks more like compression (which means, if this is true, changing the envelope of the sound, hence the sound itself ... not just its volume), while traditional, gentle manual gain riding doesn't change that. So, my question is ... what is the difference between MAV and a compressor, in terms of envelope-shaping? Does really MAV replace manual gain riding, or is it more like a compressor replacement? Does MAV change the sound's envelope (attack, release)?
THANKS

[pumafred]

MAV does (or ... can do) some pretty fast, precise gain riding. Which is not what manual gain riding is (slow, broad).

MAV "can" do pretty fast, but can also do slow, broad. You set that. There's a free trial, so check it out!
Sometimes some syllables or notes are not loud enough, and that is when "fast" comes to the rescue...

[MeldaProduction]

Exactly! The problem with automation is that it is naturally inaccurate. MAutoVolume can be set to be very slow, where it would be fine. But it can also be very fast (useful for other instruments as well as vocals), where the automation would just be too slow.

[HSum]

I'd recommend using the Vocal Rider plugin from Waves (if it is necessary at all) just for the reason it was designed to work with vocals. I tried Auto Volume but its algorithm seems to be too generic to fit all kind of material. Personally I never felt like needing a rider plugin for other audio sources than vocals so I like to use a plugin specified for this task. Editing the written automation is nice but I mainly use it for fx and not to correct the very rare errors. Of course be sure to buy it through the discount phase (which seems to be now).

You could also try the AutoGain plugin from Hornet or Gain Rider from TBProAudio. Both plugins have no problem with reading/writing automation. The Hornet one is even less expensive than the Meldaproduction one.

[pumafred]

I vote, again, for MAV.
Check out this short video: viewtopic.php?f=138&t=490390

[JoMas]

Wow, I liked what I saw (heard ...) in that video. The increase / decrease in volume in MAV seems very smooth and natural. It also seems quite different from what a compressor would do - it actually seems like classic gain riding. I guess that answers my previous question ... MAV also seems more tweakable and flexible than Waves Rider, not to mention much cheaper, with the current discount.

[alexis1]

Wow, I liked what I saw (heard ...) in that video. The increase / decrease in volume in MAV seems very smooth and natural. It also seems quite different from what a compressor would do - it actually seems like classic gain riding. I guess that answers my previous question ... MAV also seems more tweakable and flexible than Waves Rider, not to mention much cheaper, with the current discount.

My problem is not knowing how to drive it, i.e., when to twist each knob. Some great info in Chandlerhimself's recent vid, and tantalizing hints and clues spread out here and there in the forum, but I've never seen a comprehensive review of the plug-in anywhere. I found it's not hard to induce some subtle distortion on vocals, and ever since then I've been waiting for such a comprehensive review before using it again.

I do understand that with time it probably becomes more obvious how to drive this Ferrari of a plug-in, but at least as of now I'm using that time to do clip gain adjustments.

[MeldaProduction]

Thanks folks!

alexis1: It's like with everything - learn by trial and error. In most cases you don't need to do anything actually. Just speed probably.

[JoMas]

My problem is not knowing how to drive it, i.e., when to twist each knob. Some great info in Chandlerhimself's recent vid, and tantalizing hints and clues spread out here and there in the forum, but I've never seen a comprehensive review of the plug-in anywhere. I found it's not hard to induce some subtle distortion on vocals, and ever since then I've been waiting for such a comprehensive review before using it again.
I do understand that with time it probably becomes more obvious how to drive this Ferrari of a plug-in, but at least as of now I'm using that time to do clip gain adjustments.

You're right, there's not much information around. However I just bought it and played with it a little bit, and once you try it it's not so hard to understand the function of each knob. In fact, once you get your hands on, most things seem pretty simple. The possibility of distortion is more concerning maybe, but so far ... so good. I'm using it in a very gentle, conservative way (I just want to mimic subtle manual gain riding). So, I limit the range to around 4 to 8 db max, use slow speed (speed is the only thing that has to be adjusted really carefully), use generous lookahead, adjust the input gain so that I have a more or less equal amount of gain increases and decreases (this is important I think), and match the output so I can bypass it and really hear if there's anything strange. In this configuration, it seems very transparent and very, very effective to me. It took me 10 minutes to find settings that I liked, and I think I can re-use them in most vocal tracks with very minor adjustments. Of course I am at the very beginning, but I think that I have already a good handle of it. The metering (both of them) are VERY useful to see what's going on.
This is with vocals. I haven't tried it yet with other instruments or applications though, but I'm pretty optimistic now.
I just want to add that I bought another gain riding plugin months ago (not mentioning any names ....) and I just couldn't find a usable configuration, it worked very oddly to me. Maybe it was me, but I just couldn't use it.
I never tried Waves, but it's only for vocals (well, it's been built for vocals, so I am guessing it wouldn't go very well for other applications) and far less tweakable, I think. And more expensive. So ... no thanks.
With MAV it took me about 10 minutes to find a configuration that does exactly what I want with vocals.

[alexis1]

...
... I'm using it in a very gentle, conservative way (I just want to mimic subtle manual gain riding). So, I limit the range to around 4 to 8 db max, use slow speed (speed is the only thing that has to be adjusted really carefully), use generous lookahead, adjust the input gain so that I have a more or less equal amount of gain increases and decreases (this is important I think), and match the output so I can bypass it and really hear if there's anything strange. In this configuration, it seems very transparent and very, very effective to me. It took me 10 minutes to find settings that I liked, and I think I can re-use them in most vocal tracks with very minor adjustments. Of course I am at the very beginning, but I think that I have already a good handle of it. The metering (both of them) are VERY useful to see what's going on.
This is with vocals....
With MAV it took me about 10 minutes to find a configuration that does exactly what I want with vocals.

Thanks, Jomas, lots of nice hints in your real-world experience post.

It's funny, when I do manual clip gain, it's rare that a change of 8dB doesn't pretty much smooth the vocal out nicely, but when I dial that into MAutovolume it seems to have lesser of an effect.

All this activity on the forum gets me motivated to try and use it again, maybe this will be the time it all clicks and works out week for me .

[mibby]

I have a strong suspicion that the various Waves "rider" plugins are basically the same code with different UIs. Don't forget about the "Detector" section that lets you make MAutoVolume a Bass Rider, Vocal Rider or even a DeEsser as someone posted recently.

+1 on a more comprehensive use-case/tips/tutorial on this awesome plugin though. I'm still trying to figure it out!

[MeldaProduction]

mibby, I must agree, I also think the waves plugins are pretty much the same, probably with different response times though. So, Speed parameter .