Diva...the Test of Time...

[mcnoone]

[
Everything is easy if you learn how to use it. If its tedious, it doesnt get used. Thats not creative. I just dont get inspired by uhe stuff. I find the implimentaion of certain things counter creative. Like i said, you cant please everyone. Its no big deal for me. I have other tools. Many other ppl are happy with uhe stuff.

Learning a language can be tedious at times.
People don't learn languages because they're easy, or know how to do so.
Moving to a country to learn the language of said country is even more difficult and tedious than staying in your own country and reading language study books and listening to cd's and such.
Yet the former is a more efficient way to learn said language in the long run, and actually shortens the time required in learning a language. More tedious and difficult. The results are much better though.
That just punches a big hole into the backwards logic you've put forth there.

I find the implimentaion of certain things counter creative.

Saying this, without actually being specific is a disservice to everyone interested.
Besides midi implementation. I fail to to see this criticism of yours justifiable at all.
Other tools that you use, might have, and most likely do have the same exact counter creative features, considering that when it comes to synths, the features in every one of them are similar in degrees for many of them.
So care to enlighten us on the details of how you came to your opinion, or are you just going to continue throwing generalizations about a synth that might be more about your lack of skill than the synth itself.

[liquidsound]

Learning a language can be tedious at times.
People don't learn languages because they're easy, or know how to do so.
Moving to a country to learn the language of said country is even more difficult and tedious than staying in your own country and reading language study books and listening to cd's and such.
Yet the former is a more efficient way to learn said language in the long run, and actually shortens the time required in learning a language. More tedious and difficult. The results are much better though.
That just punches a big hole into the backwards logic you've put forth there.

That's was my initial problem with Diva. Too many options and an usual (for me) section of controls, mostly visual.
The outstanding quality of the sound forced me to learn that "Foreign Language".
I'm glad I did. I could not, though, "criticize" Diva for what it is, because that's the way Diva came to exist with the best intentions and skills among the best developers in the industry.
Learn something "uncomfortable" and you get better and better at life in general.

[seamoss]

entertaining? For me it was only a waste of time while waiting for a download to finish ...

Talking about music is boring already. Talking about music software ... even worse. Playing music and enjoying music is what makes sense.

Sorry to hear that.

[AnX]

[
Everything is easy if you learn how to use it. If its tedious, it doesnt get used. Thats not creative. I just dont get inspired by uhe stuff. I find the implimentaion of certain things counter creative. Like i said, you cant please everyone. Its no big deal for me. I have other tools. Many other ppl are happy with uhe stuff.

Learning a language can be tedious at times.
People don't learn languages because they're easy, or know how to do so.
Moving to a country to learn the language of said country is even more difficult and tedious than staying in your own country and reading language study books and listening to cd's and such.
Yet the former is a more efficient way to learn said language in the long run, and actually shortens the time required in learning a language. More tedious and difficult. The results are much better though.
That just punches a big hole into the backwards logic you've put forth there.

Maybe, in your world....but thats not what im talking about. I dont have any probs understanding how it/they work...ive been doing this for a long time. I know how synths work. If the workflow is tedious, i dont use it. Hopefully thats patched up the imaginary hole in the logic you made up to suit your 'argument'

I find the implimentaion of certain things counter creative.

Saying this, without actually being specific is a disservice to everyone interested.
Besides midi implementation. I fail to to see this criticism of yours justifiable at all.
Other tools that you use, might have, and most likely do have the same exact counter creative features...

no, they dont, thats why i use those instead. Go figure.

So care to enlighten us on the details of how you came to your opinion, or are you just going to continue throwing generalizations about a synth that might be more about your lack of skill than the synth itself.

Us? i wasnt aware Uhe had employed you... and as i was talking directly to Urs, i guess you sticking your nose into the convo means you a vested interest....or maybe you're just bored. Lets go with bored, you seem the type. (...and i really cant see Urs employing someone like you )

[Teksonik]

By "that other Minimoog emulation" do you mean The Legend or Monark ?

Look, I don't want to piss anyone off. It's the curse of "being me" that I can't voice my opinion unless it's a good one (or unless it's a company that thinks Howard and I are supremacist Nazis anyway, I won't tell you which one that is)

So, to clear this up amicably: It was neither The Legend nor Monark nor any other Minimoog emulation.

There. I lied. You made me

Thing is, I think both Legend and Monark are great and they're yet another step further towards realistic Minimoog emulations than Diva. But that doesn't suddenly push Diva back down on the same level as previous attempts. I think that Legend sounds more realistic while Monark has been modeled in more detail. By "realistic" I mean a common denominator of the Minimoog sound, if that exists.

While Diva may sound less realistic than Legend to me and while she's definitely a less detailed emulation than Monark, I don't think the harsh judegement she sometimes gets is warranted. I think much of that isn't always based on facts, but on the belief that something newer is inherently better. Being "in" is a bonus that automatically renders its predecessors "out".

This describes an inherent property of "fashion". The good thing about good software is continuous development though. It can crack "fashion". We've done it before and I'm determined to do it again.

I'm not the least bit pissed off it's simply if your comment about "tame and sterile" was directed at Legend as I said "I must respectfully disagree" based on the tests I ran here, on my system, with patches I find useful. As I also said I love DIVA for what it does and The Legend for what it does. Owning both makes perfect sense to me. They are both brilliant instruments.

[sfd]

In the last few years i acquired a lot of Vintage Analog, Modern Analog and VA Hardware synths.
At the same time i also own/ed almost any VST Synth out there. By now 99% of the VST Synth
i owned i already retired. Completely...or either sold them. I have a Virus TI 2, an Analog Keys,
i have a Modular with also a MiniMod line in it, 2 VCOs, VCF, VCA, Contour and also a DPO VCO
a Sub37, Tiesco 100F and Vintage ARP Odyssey. In the past i owned an ARP2600 and Vintage MS20.
Even though i have those Synths above, DIVA is the ONLY synth that runs parallel with them and
never gives up. It is right next to any of them that i mentioned above, of course the ones that i
own now. I have a Module from Sputnik Modular that allows you to bring Audio from the outside
world inside the Modular and that is how i use Diva a lot of times, just running a plain Oscillator
in the Modular and then using the Modular Envelopes, VCF and Contour and then back into Cubase.
Its like made in heaven...Bazille is right next to it...anyone can share any stories like this?
I am planning on getting one of DSI Synths...and maybe a Repro too...that will be interesting.

I see you're expressing your opinion.

That's very good. I like this. One should share one's views.

If you like you can read my thoughts about this software here.

It's very nice that you have found a VSTi that you love a lot !

Sincerely / H

[zerocrossing]

There's two possible (technical) issues I see with Diva when comparing to stuff that came out later:

- FilterFM has no DC offset (unlike Minimoogs)
- Filter cutoff is constrained to 20kHz

Former was a necessity attributed to Diva's concept, but maybe some we can drop in a future version.

Latter might explain why someone might find Diva to sound muted. With a 12dB attenuation at 20kHz, there's always some lowpass filtering in the audible range. In comparison, Repro-1 closes at 35kHz, so the audible range isn't attenuated with the filter fully open.

We did this because it was common, because it saved CPU and because our two reference Moog Filters closed at about 16kHz and 20-something respectively. It's a realistic setting, but maybe not one that's for everyone. OTOH maybe it's for more people than the other way round?

Furthermore, certainly, Diva is more complex than any Minimoog emulation. The roles of oscillators are swapped. The knob ranges have been fit into a skeleton that works for all models. It's more work to compare Diva to a Minimoog (or a clone thereof) than comparing any of the Minimoog emulations to one or among each other. There's no question about that.

While these may be disadvantages for a 1:1 comparison of Diva and Minimoogs, it would be cherry picking to reduce Diva to just that. No UI and no algorithm can ever change that - Diva is a lot more than just a Minimoog emulation and thus not as easily compared to a Minimoog as an actual emulation. On the other hand, one can't even begin to compare a Minimoog emulation to Diva in her entirety.

Apology accepted!

[zerocrossing]

@zerocrossing

Checked your portfolio as you thought it would be a good idea to mention your work a few pages back. Jesus are you serious? I can't even believe you dare to make comments on other people work with that piece of crappy designs. Get a life.

Now on the other side it all makes totally sense of course..

I've got a pretty good life, actually. Room full of gear (and software) that sits on top of a hill that affords me a view of the entire San Francisco Bay... ok, that's not true, I can't see the Golden Gate, just the Bay Bridge. LAME. I can send my daughter to a private preschool so she can learn Chinese. This is becoming a problem though, as I don't know Chinese.

Dreamworks seemed to like my work...







I did all the UX design for Spiral Knights http://www.spiralknights.com/ and it won GDC Game of the Year when it was released. My site hadn't been updated in years and most of my work I can't post due to NDAs. The main reason I don't put anything on my site anymore is that I sign an NDA and often the project is killed for one reason or another. I end up having to bring graphics directly to potential clients.

I did these tutorials as well. I don't even think the game was ever released but they liked my tutorials so much they kept them. http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-tcg/p ... /tutorial/

I did all the special effects and about half the UI Art in this game: (which seems to no longer exist)



and this:



But, my work tends to look cartoony and a lot of it was made for lower resolution screens. That's not because that's my preferred style, it's just the style that made sense in the game. I don't end up posting much of my UX work because it's really just documents and flow charts/maps. To do a version of Diva that had a proper mod matrix would require a lot of work. I'd have to go though the manual and identify every possible function and how it could be modulated. It might not actually be possible, but I get the feeling it would be as long as there as a system in place that removed modulation choices from the lists based on what modules were currently in use. It's not trivial at all and it would mean looking for a different solution to where the effects go. If I was unemployeed I'd give it a go, but I'm working on illustrating a book at the moment and that's kicking my ass because I'm not an illustrator so it's me actually learning how to do it as I go along. The result is that my current pages end up being better than my first pages so I have to go back and redo all of them. Fun work though.

https://app.box.com/s/x4s4ji9w71bubm9g1xwbpj2ndhddrmjz

So that's my life. How's yours?

[AnX]

I can send my daughter to a private preschool so she can learn Chinese. This is becoming a problem though, as I don't know Chinese.

Mcnoone does, he lived there! Maybe you can give him a job teaching you. He has much to teach, and could do with the cash for rent

[Autobot]

@zerocrossing

Checked your portfolio as you thought it would be a good idea to mention your work a few pages back. Jesus are you serious? I can't even believe you dare to make comments on other people work with that piece of crappy designs. Get a life.

Now on the other side it all makes totally sense of course..

I've got a pretty good life, actually. Room full of gear (and software) that sits on top of a hill that affords me a view of the entire San Francisco Bay... ok, that's not true, I can't see the Golden Gate, just the Bay Bridge. LAME. I can send my daughter to a private preschool so she can learn Chinese. This is becoming a problem though, as I don't know Chinese.

Dreamworks seemed to like my work...







I did all the UX design for Spiral Knights http://www.spiralknights.com/ and it won GDC Game of the Year when it was released. My site hadn't been updated in years and most of my work I can't post due to NDAs. The main reason I don't put anything on my site anymore is that I sign an NDA and often the project is killed for one reason or another. I end up having to bring graphics directly to potential clients.

I did these tutorials as well. I don't even think the game was ever released but they liked my tutorials so much they kept them. http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-tcg/p ... /tutorial/

I did all the special effects and about half the UI Art in this game: (which seems to no longer exist)



and this:



But, my work tends to look cartoony and a lot of it was made for lower resolution screens. That's not because that's my preferred style, it's just the style that made sense in the game. I don't end up posting much of my UX work because it's really just documents and flow charts/maps. To do a version of Diva that had a proper mod matrix would require a lot of work. I'd have to go though the manual and identify every possible function and how it could be modulated. It might not actually be possible, but I get the feeling it would be as long as there as a system in place that removed modulation choices from the lists based on what modules were currently in use. It's not trivial at all and it would mean looking for a different solution to where the effects go. If I was unemployeed I'd give it a go, but I'm working on illustrating a book at the moment and that's kicking my ass because I'm not an illustrator so it's me actually learning how to do it as I go along. The result is that my current pages end up being better than my first pages so I have to go back and redo all of them. Fun work though.

https://app.box.com/s/x4s4ji9w71bubm9g1xwbpj2ndhddrmjz

So that's my life. How's yours?

Who care's? This thread is slightly deranged. Sorry design is not design. A great cartoonist is not automatically one who can design a car. What's you point?

[zerocrossing]

Who care's?

No one!

you point?

None really. Just troll bashing. I made what I think are reasonable criticisms of Diva's UI. I didn't yell, "it sucks!" or "It's ugly!" I just suggested a few minor tweaks to the look of some elements might make it more readable and replacing all the "hardwired" modulation controls (that aren't) with a standard modulation matrix could make the overall usability better. (have a look at how Retrologue does it. Not the art style, just the design) Hardly crazy things, but I was attacked, both by Urs and some of his rabid fanbois (which oddly, I kind of am). I was compared to "trumpeters" (a reference to Trump supporters, if you're not in the USA) and ironically bullied in more or less the exact way that Donnie's minions bully anyone who disagree with their ideas of how things should be. Relegated to "someone from the corner of the internet" when I've been a contributor to this forum and a patron of U-He software since 2005 at least.

[hakey]

a standard modulation matrix could make the overall usability better

The reason why Diva hasn't got a mod matrix has been explained several times, most recently here.

ModMatrices and Multicore are mutually exclusive

[Urs]

a standard modulation matrix could make the overall usability better

The reason why Diva hasn't got a mod matrix has been explained several times, most recently here.

ModMatrices and Multicore are mutually exclusive

Even if we finally extend Matrices to work in a multicore environment, the lag generator and rectifier will need just the same extra treatment that's the base of criticism.

It's funny. Instead of "why did you do this and that...?" it's "you made a mistake there". Which is just not how one goes about things.

[Autobot]

a standard modulation matrix could make the overall usability better

The reason why Diva hasn't got a mod matrix has been explained several times, most recently here.

[...] It's funny. Instead of "why did you do this and that...?" it's "you made a mistake there". Which is just not how one goes about things.

[masterhiggins]

a standard modulation matrix could make the overall usability better

The reason why Diva hasn't got a mod matrix has been explained several times, most recently here.

ModMatrices and Multicore are mutually exclusive

Even if we finally extend Matrices to work in a multicore environment, the lag generator and rectifier will need just the same extra treatment that's the base of criticism.

It's funny. Instead of "why did you do this and that...?" it's "you made a mistake there". Which is just not how one goes about things.

Are you doubting his vast experience of project management? How many private schools are you sending YOUR kids to?