SKnote "MotorTown" - A new Mahogany Drumset and a virtual Drummer - Mic modeling and effects

[quintosardo]

Mac versions have been updated online!


***Edite

Win versions updated online, too!

[jens]

Well, where is the description of things?
You write "as is" but I cannot really understand what you'd ask for to put your gun away from your head, ah ah!

It is fully developed, of course! We are using it on lots of songs, including ones whose Groove is included in the downloadable page
And we are having quite some fun here, I'd say
Let me know what isn't working for you, otherwise I'm not able to do anything.

The one I understand is about Tempo map: that question was not from me, right? That control is coming. I wanted to upload the version which includes it today but needed a check. It didn't make sense for me at first (BPM automation was just left off by mistake) but we had a few requests. Still few but let's go for it.

Were you able to hear microphones, EQs, Comps, other effects? That was quite weird as they are quite strong even though Tube is very subtle.

Jens, if you cannot hear what "Dynamics" control does, something is completely wrong there! Please use email for assistance! The effect of Dynamics is radical. Did you read the two deep instructions posts? This one is complete:

MotorTown - Features

***Edit
Lagging right hand? Check the flam feature in the instructions or send me an email for a description!
***

Twice the price? Don't suggest that
Can you imagine the amount of work needed here?

Users? We use a lot of their feedback, of course, every day! It has to be filtered and merged of course, you cannot follow everything.
Just imagine I'm already working on new features, Words and even a new kit from requests we got after this one was released. Two days!
Here, for example, just tempo map is coming but "I cannot hear the effects", I just cannot make great use of this!

A few videos will help for sure, we're working. You say a hand lags so something is done completely wrong there. And there isn't anyhing special to do to get a basic track running smoothly: just pick a few beats on the basic setup and go

I'm shooting a few videos to show the mix side of things, without using the individual outputs but only the on board effects.

Just by Microphones and Compressors and Bleed and Rooms we can already get lots of things going about the sound. You'll see, don't be scared by a different concept. Tempo maps: yes, but only if you have a real performance and want to replace everything there or build a whole song around what a real drummer did. But to write down a song or replace a preformance or set a track ready to go fast, freehand, and then track all the band over it: no maps, just writing fast and controlling with macros

Write a few phrases, set the sound or load your preset, move a few performance parameters and ready to go.

Did you hear how the rooms sound and how usable they are? I love them, no gimmicks!
And the power of that "Decay" control? Super.

P.S. The offer is still open to everybody! Send your song, get back the drums programmed. No Metal, though, this is called MotorTown. Any genre but within certain limits

P.P.S. Did I say I'm astonished by the fact it is looking rock solid once the install is done? Quite rare with v.1.0.0

P.P.P.S. For requests about content (like new styles) everybody can write to Mirko at sknoteaudio.com. He's keeping libraries growing, so you can drive his choices.
For assistance better use quintosardo at yahoo.it

Sorry, Quinto, but I only come around answering your post just now.

What I wrote in regards to tempo-automation was because that was exactly the term you used so I assumed that this is what you wanted to implement - as opposed to tempo-sync - and I did my best in trying to explain you, why tempo-Automation is NOT a proper replacement for tempo-sync. If tempo-sync is what you actually meant when you wrote "tempo-automation", then of course my comments about it become redundant. But that is because I can't read minds and only answer what people actually say. And since tempo-Automation and tempo-sync are neither functionally nor technically anywhere near being the same function, I would suggest to only use the term "tempo-sync" when referring to tempo-sync and "tempo-automation" when referring to tempo-automation.

Dynamics? Yes, I read the description again and I can clearly hear now what it does. I was falsely assuming that it would also control those dynamic variations that are happening by default, apparently without the user having any control over it - which is bad of course.

Here is some Little test file I created:

MotorTown-Test.wav

first eight bars of MotorTown, then eight bars of AddictiveDrums playing the same pattern.

You can hear

- how MotorTown plays some kind of non-random pattern, which is bad as it almost starts to become melody-like. In no way do these variations help to make it less machine-like. Rather the contrary is the case.

- how MotorTown f**ks up the timing of first two snare hits of each bar, which are right-hand hits.Is this differnt on your machine if you let it Play the exact same pattern? Is this a bug?

- how the sound basically stays the same (it mostly f**ks with the phase, it seems), even though I used wildly different EQ and mic settings for the four different snippets of four bars each.

- how unprocessed and natural AddctiveDrummer sounds in comparison to MotorTown - even though MotorTown sounds great, I will gladly admit that.

This is the MotorTown pattern I used:



What did I do wrong to end up with such a f**ked up and non-useable result?

One other thing:

due to the missing transport-sync, MotorTown keeps playing the last-triggered pattern after stopping playback, which in itself is basically annoying enough to not want to use MotorTown in a production. Seriously: what on earth?

[plexuss]

I decided to give this a shot and bought MotorTown. As I suspected, I can't get it to work. I am on a mac running Logic Pro X.

- I put MotorTown.component in /Library/Audio/Plug-ins/Components
- I put MotorTown.ini in the same dir
- I edited the two top lines in the ini to the below and created these dirs:
/Library/Audio/MotorTown
/Library/Audio/MotorTown/Grooves/
- I copied MotorTown_Tn_cr files to /Library/Audio/MotorTown (n=1..6)
- dlbia_b164.gro into /Library/Audio/MotorTown/Grooves/

I ran Logic and the auvaltool crashed when trying to validate MotorTown

I manually tried to authorize with the Plug-in Manager and auvaltool crashed

- I changed the directory and file permissions in /Library/Audio/MotorTown to root/admin
- I changed the permissions of the component and ini to root/admin

It still crashes auvaltool.

Any suggestions?

[quintosardo]

Don't waste your time, I found a serious bug in the Mac version and I had to rewrite a bunch of code :/

Now it is ready! Uploading the update now...

Jens: your post requires more time, answering in a minute. Sorry for the delay, I was completely lost to get the Mac version fixed. Not a fun weekend.

[quintosardo]

Sorry, Quinto, but I only come around answering your post just now.

No proble at all, I wasn't reading. I spent last three days rewriting a bunch of code to fix the Mac version. Now it is done, updating it online.

What I wrote in regards to tempo-automation was because that was exactly the term you used so I assumed that this is what you wanted to implement - as opposed to tempo-sync - and I did my best in trying to explain you, why tempo-Automation is NOT a proper replacement for tempo-sync. If tempo-sync is what you actually meant when you wrote "tempo-automation", then of course my comments about it become redundant. But that is because I can't read minds and only answer what people actually say. And since tempo-Automation and tempo-sync are neither functionally nor technically anywhere near being the same function, I would suggest to only use the term "tempo-sync" when referring to tempo-sync and "tempo-automation" when referring to tempo-automation.

Ok, you meant following Tempo. I stupidly just thought of not having to write BPM manually in the text field.
It is automatable now.

Dynamics? Yes, I read the description again and I can clearly hear now what it does. I was falsely assuming that it would also control those dynamic variations that are happening by default, apparently without the user having any control over it - which is bad of course.

Here is some Little test file I created:

MotorTown-Test.wav

first eight bars of MotorTown, then eight bars of AddictiveDrums playing the same pattern.

You can hear

- how MotorTown plays some kind of non-random pattern, which is bad as it almost starts to become melody-like. In no way do these variations help to make it less machine-like. Rather the contrary is the case.

Nothing is random in MotorTown. Everything is deterministic. I cannot accept having even a small detail sounding different every time I play the same slice. I guess what you are hearing is the pattern of differences among samples. It is not built for a short loop playing ever and ever. No random variations every time the loop is repeated. It is exactly the same. Thjis is how I expect it to behave.

- how MotorTown f**ks up the timing of first two snare hits of each bar, which are right-hand hits.Is this differnt on your machine if you let it Play the exact same pattern? Is this a bug?

I'm checking this and writing back in a couple of minutes. I guess it is something that was already fixed (related only to Right Hand, a conceptual mistake about flames). Are you using your first download? It was updated as announced here and on the page. We are starting with increasing update numbers on the interface after this main fix ready today.

- how the sound basically stays the same (it mostly f**ks with the phase, it seems), even though I used wildly different EQ and mic settings for the four different snippets of four bars each.

The EQ is just +/-6 dB, never goes wild! I'll check this now.
I'm adding a readout for actual values, it helps with different ranges for different channels.

- how unprocessed and natural AddctiveDrummer sounds in comparison to MotorTown - even though MotorTown sounds great, I will gladly admit that.

Never listened to that. Back with my feelings in a couple of minutes.

This is the MotorTown pattern I used:



What did I do wrong to end up with such a f**ked up and non-useable result?

I guess it is about tha update thing. Back in a minute about this, too.

We wrote like 50 songs so it works, that's for sure.

One other thing:

due to the missing transport-sync, MotorTown keeps playing the last-triggered pattern after stopping playback, which in itself is basically annoying enough to not want to use MotorTown in a production. Seriously: what on earth?

This is a detail that could have been just noted without planets
The engine is brand new, we are working on next drums (Rock-Metal today) and usability features like this can simply be noted and we'll improve the interface.
For example, it wasn't annoying for me because lets you use short MIDI notes without thinking of their duration. Fast and simple. If the Phrases should break we have to use precise note off for triggering. It is just a choice.

[quintosardo]

Ok, I'm back!

Timing: I can confirm that it was an issue which was resolved with the update online. You are using the very first download.
It was not a bug, it was a conceptual mistake I made. Now it correctly delays one hand _only_ if both hands are playing the same word on the same piece at the same time.

EQs: I just did this, because I was sure but you cannot ever know with software: let your loop play, switch the effect channel for the Snare on, increase lows or highs. The effect is blatant as it should be (+/-6dB).

Audio example: here I cannot help you. We don't agree about the concept of "good sound". What I can hear is a great drumkit first (exactly what I was looking for, how I tuned the drums, "Natural Drumsets", our nice mahogany kit, tracked through Earthworks mics with a natural drumkit sound) and some artificial, processed, dry samples through a bad reverb. Sorry for this, you can easily see how I _never_ compare products but you asked for it. I think we are not even in the range of "subjective taste". Probably we failed trying to define this kit: main keywords are "Real" and "Natural".

Patterns and variations: I can confirm. MotorTown _never_ uses realtime randomisation. Never. You play a phrase, listen, export, you get the same sound, like having tracked your drums in the studio. This is a choice. Deterministic. Not built for endless looping of a short phrase. It is done like we used it in the songs available in the library: write all the song down, call the phrases. Not a loop machine. Slight variations you hear come from different samples.


Jens, you made me think! Your example is a perfect example of the reason why I decided to start building kits! The right sound, which I was missing. Natural, if you want. Completely customisable, because unprocessed. Re-mic-able, because neutrally tracked. Usable great rooms, not "reverb".

[jens]

I can confirm that the timing non-bug is gone!

Patterns and variations: I can confirm. MotorTown _never_ uses realtime randomisation. Never. You play a phrase, listen, export, you get the same sound, like having tracked your drums in the studio. This is a choice. Deterministic. Not built for endless looping of a short phrase. It is done like we used it in the songs available in the library: write all the song down, call the phrases. Not a loop machine. Slight variations you hear come from different samples.

Then it's the samples - either way, for instance the kick-drum clearly repeats a pattern that is six 1/4 beats long, where the first two sound significantly different to the other four.

[jens]

some artificial, processed, dry samples through a bad reverb

No, actually they are neither processed nor going through reverb - there however is some room added (just as the overheads, the room-mics (optionally) go to individual stereo-outs) . AD includes a fully fledged mixer including various inserts and two sends, all of which I had completely bypassed though. Processed it would sound a lot more impressive, that's for sure.

[plexuss]

Quinto is the new mac version ready to download? You didnt say.

[quintosardo]

Mac version: here we go with the devil:

-----------------------
int* iVariable

LaunchThread((long *) iVariable)
-----------------------

The bug has been killed. I'm currently uploading the files. They should be ready in half a hour. I'll write here, too, as soon as ready.

I really can't wait for this kit to play around.

[jens]

Oh, both the EQ and the compressor are working too now.

Just the mics still mostly do not seem to do much - if anything at all.
Both Condenser 1 and Dynamic 2 are very obvious on both snare and hi-hat, not on the kick though.

[quintosardo]

The Mac versions have been updated online. Let's try them

[jens]

There's some important words missing (for example "b" and "S.s." and I think they at least need to be ordered properly and - much better - should also categorized* - right now it's a chaotic mixture of various 1/8, 1/4t and 1/16 words - significantly slows down programming speed.

* a good solution would imo be to have - instead of just one - four pulldown-menus next to each other (the required space on the GUI is available) for 1/4 , 1/8 , 1/4t and 1/16.

[plexuss]

The Mac versions have been updated online. Let's try it

Great. Except... I can't log in now. It was doing this last night too.

[quintosardo]

Oh, both the EQ and the compressor are working too now.

Just the mics still mostly do not seem to do much - if anything at all.
Both Condenser 1 and Dynamic 2 are very obvious on both snare and hi-hat, not on the kick though.

Uhm, they can be quite strong... the best way to audition them is probably to switch models on the Pan channel while its volume is high