License model no way !!!

[digitalfix]

One thought: If we pay in advance for 12 months of upgrades, will we get the changelog for the next 12 months in advance too?

I like how you think!

Seriously?

Every piece of software you buy, you buy on faith that the bugs get fixed. How is this different?

Quite different, when you have a 3 year history to reflect upon you don't need to rely on faith, you can act on intuition.

Fair point. My instinct is to get the upgrade

[humanbeingbeing]

meanwhile im just waiting til bitwig fits my needs then opt in from 1.0 to 3.0(or maybe 4.0) for the update license price.

Meanwhile Live users got significant .X updates, as was Live 9.5 without paying more.

Meanwhile Live users also got email and phone support for the full 4 years.

Then what are you doing here ?

The reason why they are here is the same reason you are here.

[ezelkow1]

One thought: If we pay in advance for 12 months of upgrades, will we get the changelog for the next 12 months in advance too?

I like how you think!

Seriously?

Every piece of software you buy, you buy on faith that the bugs get fixed. How is this different?

Yes, Seriously!

I didn't say that's how it should be. What I meant was that it would be really nice. Some developers have roadmaps, which is similar, but not in detail. A roadmap of the coming features within the next 12 months would be awesome, especially since Bitwig promised online collaboration and the modular system would come in version 2.0. Now it won't be available upon release, how can we trust they will add this within the coming 12 months?

When did they say that those will be in V2? The page on the website that talks about those features doesn't say that.

With this model, you probably won't see version 3 or 4, just incremental updates. Just buy in when you get features that you feel are worth the money.

It was on their website in 2015/2016, I posted the wayback machine link in another thread that specifically stated that the modular system would be available in the next major release. This has since been removed when the rest of the new announcements went up

The online portion however had no specific version mentioned

[humanbeingbeing]

There's no lottery as far as I see it. I pay for the 2.0 upgrade 159€. That's all right. I pay and I get. That's also all right. I pay for 2.0, not for anything else.

And included is 12 months for updates, bug fixes, perhaps features, etc...

But I have paid for 2.0 and I got 2.0, delivered.

Currently 1.3.15 works quite good. I have projects and lots of sketches.

Based on this, expectation is that 2.0 will also work. When I buy it, and by the end of the 12 months. Every software has bugs so I will not hyperventilate, so to speak, at the slightest sign. As long as the software can be used.

So, no lottery.

Your hubris for a product that hasn't even entered beta is astounding, even if Bitwig 1.0 was a perfect product the outcome of 2.0 is entirely governed by chance... what you are saying is that you are willing to pay for it regardless, you should not be proclaiming it's not a lottery- the fact you are going to pay up regardless undermines your arguments, it shows that you lack objectivity, yet you're the one telling people not to complain... is there anything that would stop you from subscribing?. also from what I understand you use Linux for your host, so you dont even have options, it's between Bitwig, Ardour and Traktion, no wonder you love Bitwig so much, 2.0 is the only option you have, I suppose anything is better than nothing.

[mevla]

There's no lottery as far as I see it. I pay for the 2.0 upgrade 159€. That's all right. I pay and I get. That's also all right. I pay for 2.0, not for anything else.

And included is 12 months for updates, bug fixes, perhaps features, etc...

But I have paid for 2.0 and I got 2.0, delivered.

Currently 1.3.15 works quite good. I have projects and lots of sketches.

Based on this, expectation is that 2.0 will also work. When I buy it, and by the end of the 12 months. Every software has bugs so I will not hyperventilate, so to speak, at the slightest sign. As long as the software can be used.

So, no lottery.

Your hubris for a product that hasn't even entered beta is astounding, even if Bitwig 1.0 was a perfect product the outcome of 2.0 is entirely governed by chance... what you are saying is that you are willing to pay for it regardless, you should not be proclaiming it's not a lottery- the fact you are going to pay up regardless undermines your arguments, it shows that you lack objectivity... is there anything that would stop you from subscribing?.

Same as anything else. They don't deliver, then it's problem time.

Not before.

You alreay mentioned you have problems with current Bitwig.

For me it does work very well.

I will pay for 2.0 upgrade. I do not expect them to deliver a broken product.

Do you ?

[mevla]

meanwhile im just waiting til bitwig fits my needs then opt in from 1.0 to 3.0(or maybe 4.0) for the update license price.

Meanwhile Live users got significant .X updates, as was Live 9.5 without paying more.

Meanwhile Live users also got email and phone support for the full 4 years.

Then what are you doing here ?

The reason why they are here is the same reason you are here.

Going from the singular to the plural: a way to generate drama.

Hey, I will not be feeding your trolling.

[humanbeingbeing]

There's no lottery as far as I see it. I pay for the 2.0 upgrade 159€. That's all right. I pay and I get. That's also all right. I pay for 2.0, not for anything else.

And included is 12 months for updates, bug fixes, perhaps features, etc...

But I have paid for 2.0 and I got 2.0, delivered.

Currently 1.3.15 works quite good. I have projects and lots of sketches.

Based on this, expectation is that 2.0 will also work. When I buy it, and by the end of the 12 months. Every software has bugs so I will not hyperventilate, so to speak, at the slightest sign. As long as the software can be used.

So, no lottery.

Your hubris for a product that hasn't even entered beta is astounding, even if Bitwig 1.0 was a perfect product the outcome of 2.0 is entirely governed by chance... what you are saying is that you are willing to pay for it regardless, you should not be proclaiming it's not a lottery- the fact you are going to pay up regardless undermines your arguments, it shows that you lack objectivity... is there anything that would stop you from subscribing?.

Same as anything else. They don't deliver, then it's problem time.

Not before.

You alreay mentioned you have problems with current Bitwig.

For me it does work very well.

I will pay for 2.0 upgrade. I do not expect them to deliver a broken product.

Do you ?

So I just updated my post with some notes about your Linux setup, it's true isn't it? You don't have many options... all Bitwig has to do for you is release the product, your defensiveness of Bitwig stems from the fact that you have no other options. There are users here that need to do more than sketch stuff out on Linux.

I absolutely expect a broken product, 2.0 only by number, if 1.0 is anything to go by.

[humanbeingbeing]

meanwhile im just waiting til bitwig fits my needs then opt in from 1.0 to 3.0(or maybe 4.0) for the update license price.

Meanwhile Live users got significant .X updates, as was Live 9.5 without paying more.

Meanwhile Live users also got email and phone support for the full 4 years.

Then what are you doing here ?

The reason why they are here is the same reason you are here.

Going from the singular to the plural: a way to generate drama.

Hey, I will not be feeding your trolling.

I didn't write "Then what are you doing here?". To put it another way - what are you doing here? singular. See notes RE: linux. and you have the gaul to call others trolls. haha

[beatz01]

Furthermore the upgrades don't have resale value, you license is still worth under 200e no matter how many thousands of euros you've actually spent on it along the years.

This.Ridiculous business model bordering on ripoff.

Btw, it's crazy how people have come to totally accept the concept of paying in full for software that isn't bug-free.The software industry has built their whole business model around this acceptance, making it a "standard" thing to release full versions that aren't market ready yet and tell the customers "we'll fix it later".Now the likes of Bitwig even make users pay for bug fixes that should not have been neccessary in the first place.Brainwash i say.Imagine a car manufacturer selling cars that aren't ready yet telling the customer "we'll fix the brakes later(but you have to pay extra)".What about the days when software got released only when it was ready ? Why that sheepish acceptance of a PRODUCT that in other consumer goods areas would be considered BROKEN ??

[Enrize]

Furthermore the upgrades don't have resale value, you license is still worth under 200e no matter how many thousands of euros you've actually spent on it along the years.

This.It's a ridiculous business model bordering on ripoff.

Do you really think if you've got Ableton Live 1 back in 2001 and bought all updates to latest version, your current Live 9 version should cost $1000?

[Enrize]

Btw, it's crazy how people have come to totally accept the concept of paying in full for software that isn't bug-free.The software industry has built their whole business model around this acceptance, making it a "standard" thing to release full versions that aren't market ready yet and tell the customers "we'll fix it later".Now the likes of Bitwig even make users pay for bug fixes that should not have been neccessary in the first place.Brainwash i say.Imagine a car manufacturer selling cars that aren't ready yet telling the customer "we'll fix the brakes later(but you have to pay extra)".What about the days when software got released only when it was ready ? Why that sheepish acceptance of a PRODUCT that in other consumer goods areas would be considered BROKEN ??

This is totally different things. All software has bugs. Show me which one has not? Maybe in the early days it was easy to make a stable software but today with the amount of different hardware, external music gear, controllers, mobile devices, vst plug-ins, more complicated OSes and its frequent updates, different tasks people try to achieve with a software etc..etc...its almost impossible. You can try of course but your release date might be delayed for many years ahead...until new OS update will be out

[.jon]

Nobody listens to people who can't manage something as simple as a forum quote. Fix it, I did not say that.

[Enrize]

, sometimes its not that easy from mobile phone.

[beatz01]

This is totally different things.

No, it's not.First of all, this justifying bugs in software "because that's just the way it is" is exactly the kind of downdumbing the industry has made us to accept.Up to a point where most people find it to be so normal they don't realize anymore the same way of business practice would be totally unacceptable in any other area of consumer goods.Would you accept a refridgerator that says "Pay full price, it'll almost work, pay extra for the bugfixes" ??

You have to remember, at the end of the day software companies are still companies selling products just like any other company.Only for sw manufacturers it's somehow "ok" and acceptable to sell products that are not a 100% working.

Second, yes there is such a thing as software that's bug free on the day a major version gets released.Someone named XaraX for instance, a software i have been using for at least a decade now that i have yet to apply a major or even minor bugfix for, simply because i can't find any bugs.Its functionality rivals that of Adobe Illustrator and yet they somehow manage to release bug free major versions.The myth that somehow it's "normal" for software to be released with still being ridden by numerous bugs and that's the way it has to be because "hey it's software afterall" is just that - a myth.

The reason why it happens so much is because cycles have become so fast companies can't be bothered to do proper QA anymore because they know customers will be willing to pay the full price anyway because "software".

[nocompromise]

This is totally different things.

No, it's not.First of all, this justifying bugs in software "because that's just the way it is" is exactly the kind of downdumbing the industry has made us to accept.Up to a point where most people find it to be so normal they don't realize anymore the same way of business practice would be totally unacceptable in any other area of consumer goods.Would you accept a refridgerator that says "Pay full price, it'll almost work, pay extra for the bugfixes" ??

You have to remember, at the end of the day software companies are still companies selling products just like any other company.Only for sw manufacturers it's somehow "ok" and acceptable to sell products that are not a 100% working.

Second, yes there is such a thing as software that's bug free on the day a major version gets released.Someone named XaraX for instance, a software i have been using for at least a decade now that i have yet to apply a major or even minor bugfix for, simply because i can't find any bugs.Its functionality rivals that of Adobe Illustrator and yet they somehow manage to release bug free major versions.The myth that somehow it's "normal" for software to be released with still being ridden by numerous bugs and that's the way it has to be because "hey it's software afterall" is just that - a myth.

The reason why it happens so much is because cycles have become so fast companies can't be bothered to do proper QA anymore because they know customers will be willing to pay the full price anyway because "software".

Exactly!
the early adopters have been beta testers for how many years? the people willing to update blindly on broken promises are not helping bitwig mature as a business. they are propagating an unfinished piece of software as though that is a good business tactic. just because many companies cannot be bothered to test fully doesn't make it ok.
in all truth if bitwig cannot fulfill their own promises they simply don't have a viable business. the software may be fantastic but it has no real future.
the new pricing will entice a lot of new customers to use a torrent crack instead when it becomes available (it probably is already?).
it is not illegal to voice dissatisfaction or point out the flaws in their model. just because lots of people will upgrade regardless does not make the model ok. it is not even illegal for people on both sides to get somewhat heated, at least i don't see anyone getting anything more than a ban - no-one is calling the cops are they?
for anyone who has a mac logic is a far more viable solution. it is used throughout the industry and works. linux users may chose to use bitwig due to limited options but it is their choice to use linux. it is equally possible to dual boot to use any number of windows daws which don't have bitwigs 'issues'.