License model no way !!!

[pdxindy]

meanwhile im just waiting til bitwig fits my needs then opt in from 1.0 to 3.0(or maybe 4.0) for the update license price.

Meanwhile Live users got significant .X updates, as was Live 9.5 without paying more.

Meanwhile Live users also got email and phone support for the full 4 years.

Then use Live...

I have Live and will likely upgrade to 10 whenever it comes out.

Bitwig has MPE support (and soon VST3 and note expression support). That means Bitwig has something that is important for me that Live does not.

I find M4L frustrating and that you have to use it to add an LFO. Bitwig has a native and integrated modulation system that in v2 will be polyphonic. That is big for me.

Those and other features means for me, Bitwig v2 is a buy because Live simply cannot match the Bitwig functionality.

[pdxindy]

Furthermore the upgrades don't have resale value, you license is still worth under 200e no matter how many thousands of euros you've actually spent on it along the years.

This.Ridiculous business model bordering on ripoff.

Btw, it's crazy how people have come to totally accept the concept of paying in full for software that isn't bug-free.The software industry has built their whole business model around this acceptance, making it a "standard" thing to release full versions that aren't market ready yet and tell the customers "we'll fix it later".Now the likes of Bitwig even make users pay for bug fixes that should not have been neccessary in the first place.Brainwash i say.Imagine a car manufacturer selling cars that aren't ready yet telling the customer "we'll fix the brakes later(but you have to pay extra)".What about the days when software got released only when it was ready ? Why that sheepish acceptance of a PRODUCT that in other consumer goods areas would be considered BROKEN ??

So I take it you would be willing to pay 10's of thousands of dollars for a bug free DAW?

There has never been a day when software was released without bugs.

[V0RT3X]

Unfortunately this is how people would be acting even if Bitwig was priced like Renoise.

[Michael L]

There has never been a day when software was released without bugs.

Especially DAWs-- that include many modules, host other plugins, work under ever-changing OS, and that interact with external hardware and with users who combine all of this in creative ways.
Most of these 40 pages are only to harass Bitwig to lower its prices (and if that strategy works then future whining will be even worse!)

[T71]

[pdxindy]

No, it's not.First of all, this justifying bugs in software "because that's just the way it is" is exactly the kind of downdumbing the industry has made us to accept.

I don't think that's true. I think that there's an acceptance that a DAW is a very complicated piece of software with a tonne of processes interacting both within itself and within whatever hardware and OS you're using. There are considerably more variables to deal with than something like Photoshop.

If you're going to buy into a DAW at v1, you can't expect a fully matured product. If you think DAWs are unique in this way, look at what the first iPhone was like or early versions of any OS.

It only seems to be the recent versions of Cubase (7 onwards) that have calmed down some of those users and that's a 15+ year old DAW.

Finally, those saying that Live is perfect seem to have forgotten that development was put on hold at one point to go through a massive load of bug fixes. You also clearly aren't using Max very much because that integration has some absolutely clunking flaws.

A DAW is hellishly complicated. The need to maintain realtime playback with everything in sync is way different than anything that Photoshop has to deal with. Add in all the low level connectivity to hundreds of different devices... and then the freakin plug-ins in multiple different formats.

And yeah, M4L is still buggy... I mostly stopped using it when I was still using Live all the time. And I found it annoying that Ableton stopped basic DAW development and shuffled everything off onto Max.

Bitwig is great that it has modulation in house and so well integrated. With v2 the modulators can be per voice... how cool is that!!

[humanbeingbeing]

m83nyc; thats a nice post but you should break it up a bit so people can read it.


Could people stick to original posts, getting kinda bored with this - every app has bugs line.. if that was convincing I wouldn't bother posting here.

[anttimaatteri]

Unfortunately this is how people would be acting even if Bitwig was priced like Renoise.

one just has to take a look at renoise forums and knows whats goin on hahaha.
if its not the license and not the price and not the bugs, its the development pace they nagging on like termites... on a product which is stable as fu.., cheap as fu.., license model as fu..and fully usable as fu..

[digitalfix]

No, it's not.First of all, this justifying bugs in software "because that's just the way it is" is exactly the kind of downdumbing the industry has made us to accept.

I don't think that's true. I think that there's an acceptance that a DAW is a very complicated piece of software with a tonne of processes interacting both within itself and within whatever hardware and OS you're using. There are considerably more variables to deal with than something like Photoshop.

If you're going to buy into a DAW at v1, you can't expect a fully matured product. If you think DAWs are unique in this way, look at what the first iPhone was like or early versions of any OS.

It only seems to be the recent versions of Cubase (7 onwards) that have calmed down some of those users and that's a 15+ year old DAW.

Finally, those saying that Live is perfect seem to have forgotten that development was put on hold at one point to go through a massive load of bug fixes. You also clearly aren't using Max very much because that integration has some absolutely clunking flaws.

A DAW is hellishly complicated. The need to maintain realtime playback with everything in sync is way different than anything that Photoshop has to deal with. Add in all the low level connectivity to hundreds of different devices... and then the freakin plug-ins in multiple different formats.

And yeah, M4L is still buggy... I mostly stopped using it when I was still using Live all the time. And I found it annoying that Ableton stopped basic DAW development and shuffled everything off onto Max.

Bitwig is great that it has modulation in house and so well integrated. With v2 the modulators can be per voice... how cool is that!!

Agreeing with all of this

[Winstontaneous]

There has never been a day when software was released without bugs.

There are actually 9 such days, corresponding to Propellerhead Reason release dates, but otherwise, yeah.

[humanbeingbeing]

This idea being floated that no software is released without bugs is so deceptive and misleading. The issue is not that Bitwig has bugs, the issue is that it has too many bugs for too long, and the question of how buggy is with respect to this new subscription model... please do not try and deceive people into thinking Bitwig's velocity of bugs, regressions and time-to-fix is completely normal, it is not, I find the suggestion laughable... and the way several people jump on the idea is kinda sad TBH. Bitwig's release quality has been poor, the number of issues is above average and the time to fix is very slow.

[Devogenes]

This idea being floated that no software is released without bugs is so deceptive and misleading. The issue is not that Bitwig has bugs, the issue is that it has too many bugs for too long, and the question of how buggy is with respect to this new subscription model... please do not try and deceive people into thinking Bitwig's velocity of bugs, regressions and time-to-fix is completely normal, it is not, I find the suggestion laughable.

Then don't pay for it, Jesus. BW has been usable for me more or less since launch. And I've paid them a whopping $350 or so, three years ago. Give me a break.

Full version of Live: $750
Full version of Bitwig 2.0: $400
2 years of new license: $320.

So for the cost of Live, you get full BW plus three years of Upgrades (and enough left over to take Mom out for dinner). Will you get three years of upgrades with that Live license? Hopefully not, since presumably 10 will be out sooner than that. So there's a couple hundred to upgrade to 10 on top of the $750 initial. So how much are you paying for bug fixes in Live?

$400 is cheap as hell for what this thing is. No one will force you to update your license after those 12 months lapse. Considering that the software is totally usable now, it probably will continue to be so a thirteen months from now. What's the big f**king deal, exactly?

[humanbeingbeing]

This idea being floated that no software is released without bugs is so deceptive and misleading. The issue is not that Bitwig has bugs, the issue is that it has too many bugs for too long, and the question of how buggy is with respect to this new subscription model... please do not try and deceive people into thinking Bitwig's velocity of bugs, regressions and time-to-fix is completely normal, it is not, I find the suggestion laughable.

Then don't pay for it, Jesus. BW has been usable for me more or less since launch. And I've paid them a whopping $350 or so, three years ago. Give me a break.

Full version of Live: $750
Full version of Bitwig 2.0: $400
2 years of new license: $360.

So for the cost of Live, you get full BW plus three years of Upgrades. Will you get three years of upgrades with that Live license? Hopefully not, since presumably 10 will be out sooner than that. So there's a couple hundred to upgrade to 10 on top of the $750 initial. So how much are you paying for bug fixes in Live?

$400 is cheap as hell for what this thing is. No one will force you to update your license after those 12 months lapse. Considering that the software is totally usable now, it probably will continue to be so a thirteen months from now. What's the big f**king deal, exactly?

hahaha, surely you know I'm not paying for it.. I learned my lesson with 1.0.. so have we pivoted now from not buggy to not expensive? another completely bogus deceptive notion... one follows the other, if you're willing to pay for perpetual bug fixes, I'm not stopping you.

[Devogenes]

hahaha, surely you know I'm not paying for it....

So why should anyone care what you have to say? Why are you even here?

so have we pivoted now from not buggy to not expensive?

It is inexpensive and it has minor bugs, which I have hardly experienced in three years of use. What's complicated about that?

How many of the moaners in this thread even use Bitwig? Christ.

I see you've edited your post. So you've pivoted from complaining about paying a licensing fee to complaining about bugs in version 1.0.

Compare Bitwig's new pricing structure to Ableton's. That's all anyone has to do.

[humanbeingbeing]

hahaha, surely you know I'm not paying for it....

So why should anyone care what you have to say? Why are you even here?

so have we pivoted now from not buggy to not expensive?

It is inexpensive and it has minor bugs, which I have hardly experienced in three years of use. What's complicated about that?

How many of the moaners in this thread even use Bitwig? Christ.

ugh the classic "why are you even here" argument... yuck. Do I seriously need to answer this? nah there is enough smart people on this board.

It's not inexpensive and the bugs are not minor... there is nothing "complicated" about that.