License model no way !!!

[aced411]

As a newcomer to Bitwig, I find the annual commitment from Bitwig to provide $169 worth of enhancements every year a bit off-putting. Why would they lock themselves into charging yearly? If they want to keep the revenue flowing, work your butts off and put out a killer 2.5 release or 3.0 by this time next year. If you didn't quite pull it off, then take another 6 months to get it right before asking for another $169. They've got one foot in the water and one on dry land. Either go all in on a subscription or stick with a traditional licensing model. I would love to jump in on Bitwig believe me. Despite the relatively high price provided I think it has a great workflow.

I think Bitwig will find themselves in a difficult situation. They'll be asking users to upgrade after a year and saying "we expect to have features a, b and c done mid year". Users will just wait until features a, b and c and done. They're going to find people just wait until they can deliver, regardless of the renewal date. Just my thought. I don't intend to upset anybody that totally loves this approach and if it works out then hey that's great.

[humanbeingbeing]

so I've been watching this thread for a while and it's time to stop watching it. The Bitwig devotees have won, someone else is gonna have to be anointed the self proclaimed rebel leader by a Bitwig fan... I'm sorry my dissatisfaction of this product and it's business practices has caused you offense, I think you need to grow a thicker skin, if you consider what I said hate and bile you're not going to fair well.

I have had one thing to say this whole time and I'll say it again in this license model topic - don't subscribe... -- if your experience is anything like mine it will be frustrating and extremely disappointing, its been cool to play with but not ready for professional use.... don't listen to the loyal Bitwig 'community', they really are biased, you need to be discerning with posts-- they may even put you off purchasing it forever... be weary of any suggestions from Linux DAW users unless your a Linux user yourself, they have a completely different standard of quality and compatibility... don't let anyone tell you Bitwig had a short and/or smooth release cycle... as for the price, I wouldn't sweat it, I think the price is fair I just don't think Bitwig is ready to charge it (the features are worth the money, they just don't work very well). If you really want to see what Bitwig is about, you can find it for resale easily at a heavily discounted price.

I wish Bitwig the best as I have done in the past, I have no hate for you as I said before your efforts should be commended, it's just not there yet IMO, I hope the subscription model works out for you, I think you'll probably be able to score enough new users and maybe you'll get the early users to come back in a few years, it's a shame I cant continue this adventure with you.

...also thanks to the people that PM'd me, don't let these forum people scare you. Remember rebellions are built on hope, sry couldn't resist, it's not a rebellion tsk.

[Devogenes]

[pdxindy]

so I've been watching this thread for a while and it's time to stop watching it. The Bitwig devotees have won, someone else is gonna have to be anointed the self proclaimed rebel leader by a Bitwig fan... I'm sorry my dissatisfaction of this product and it's business practices has caused you offense, I think you need to grow a thicker skin, if you consider what I said hate and bile you're not going to fair well.

I have had one thing to say this whole time and I'll say it again in this license model topic - don't subscribe... -- if your experience is anything like mine it will be frustrating and extremely disappointing, its been cool to play with but not ready for professional use.... don't listen to the loyal Bitwig 'community', they really are biased, you need to be discerning with posts

You lump people into two crude categories and then pit them against each other like sports teams.
This does many people a disservice.

The win I see is that some of the fake accounts and trolls have been banned. Now there is room for honest discussion and posts, both positive and negative. I do not consider you to be part of that problem as far as your comments I've read. But there has most certainly been a fair bit of hate and bile, name calling etc. Even if the developers have made a crappy product, they still deserve to be treated as human beings. Some of the trolls even stated that their intention is to disrupt the forum, harm Bitwig etc. Nothing good can come of that. It should be excluded.

The other place I disagree with you is that you seem to think that anyone who has a different experience with Bitwig than you do, must be a devotee, loyal and/or biased. For some people, Bitwig's performance and stability are satisfactory. They are not lying or making that up. Their experience of the software is legitimate, and so is yours. People use software in different ways and on different systems. Also, it is not clear to me how much of your frustration is with the past, and how much is based on the current shipping version. Am I misremembering that there have been quite a few updates (with many cumulative fixes) since you last tried it?

I do agree with you that Bitwig's road has been rocky. Obviously it took the developers considerably longer than they initially planned or announced to get Bitwig to the state it is at today. Not only were they developing a completely new complex software, but starting a new company as well. No doubt there have been a variety of false starts and cul-de-sac's. I'm sure they would have many stories to tell over dinner!

As for people looking to buy Bitwig... that is why there is a demo. Each potential buyer should use it and abuse it and see how it works for them.

[humanbeingbeing]

so I've been watching this thread for a while and it's time to stop watching it. The Bitwig devotees have won, someone else is gonna have to be anointed the self proclaimed rebel leader by a Bitwig fan... I'm sorry my dissatisfaction of this product and it's business practices has caused you offense, I think you need to grow a thicker skin, if you consider what I said hate and bile you're not going to fair well.

I have had one thing to say this whole time and I'll say it again in this license model topic - don't subscribe... -- if your experience is anything like mine it will be frustrating and extremely disappointing, its been cool to play with but not ready for professional use.... don't listen to the loyal Bitwig 'community', they really are biased, you need to be discerning with posts

You lump people into two crude categories and then pit them against each other like sports teams.
This does many people a disservice.

The win I see is that some of the fake accounts and trolls have been banned. Now there is room for honest discussion and posts, both positive and negative. I do not consider you to be part of that problem as far as your comments I've read. But there has most certainly been a fair bit of hate and bile, name calling etc. Even if the developers have made a crappy product, they still deserve to be treated as human beings. Some of the trolls even stated that their intention is to disrupt the forum, harm Bitwig etc. Nothing good can come of that. It should be excluded.

The other place I disagree with you is that you seem to think that anyone who has a different experience with Bitwig than you do, must be a devotee, loyal and/or biased. For some people, Bitwig's performance and stability are satisfactory. They are not lying or making that up. Their experience of the software is legitimate, and so is yours. People use software in different ways and on different systems. Also, it is not clear to me how much of your frustration is with the past, and how much is based on the current shipping version. Am I misremembering that there have been quite a few updates (with many cumulative fixes) since you last tried it?

I do agree with you that Bitwig's road has been rocky. Obviously it took the developers considerably longer than they initially planned or announced to get Bitwig to the state it is at today. Not only were they developing a completely new complex software, but starting a new company as well. No doubt there have been a variety of false starts and cul-de-sac's. I'm sure they would have many stories to tell over dinner!

As for people looking to buy Bitwig... that is why there is a demo. Each potential buyer should use it and abuse it and see how it works for them.

This will be my last reply in this thread, because this is absolutely beating a dead horse now, I wanted to stick to the topic but seeing as it has apparently got personal for some people I will address your comments, they were written appropriately so I will respond as such. I was actually defending you before, which somehow triggered Orbit 50 into his explosive 'wisdom' filled rant.

Firstly I am not putting people into 2 camps, I am putting some ppl into 1 camp of blind devotees and others like myself into the camp of sceptics. Now you yourself have acknowledged bugs, and that some people find their experience 'satisfactory', I wholeheartedly agree with you. I see it more like 4 main groups, 2 on either side, and of both sides you have sensible arguments and a faction of idiots, I think the hardliners on both sides are deplorable... and thank you for noticing that my posts are not the hate filled ones.

I do think the linux users who say their experience was satisfactory are at least incredibly misleading for lurkers.

The notion that I self proclaimed myself as some leader of a rebellion is laughable, I made no such quotes and do not even consider myself in that group, I dont even consider it a rebellion, its just a straight opposition to a controversial decision.. I for example have no issue with the price and I have no interest in destroying Bitwig, quite the opposite in fact, I think if anyone did some investigation into my past on this board and others you will see I have been one of Bitwigs earliest and most vocal advocates.

You wanted to draw a distinction between Bitwig of the past and Bitwig today, we both apparently agree about past Bitwig, so regards where it stands today.., I used 1.3.1 that is recent enough, I have the latest on my studio machine, and unfortunately todays latest version still has the timestretch timing issues I reported all the way back at the beginning, someone posted a thread about it just today. Thats not good because its just one of the serious issues I reported and others still havent been addressed, timing issues like that IMO are fundamental ... bringing things forward to today we also have this new license model controversy. Im sure the state of affairs with Bitwig has improved but evidently there are still issues and that is my argument against the subscription.., I don't really mind about the progress, clearly Bitwig have taken on a huge challenge, I just dont think they're in the right spot to ask for a subscription, the core features still have problems.

Now Im sure the debate will rage on but I cant invest in this software like this, they haven't fixed an issue I reported to support 2 years ago. Surely this qualifies my opinion which is all it is, I think people felt 'smothered' simply because they cant argue back. I also cant invest any more time in this debate, I am actually repeating myself now... but I hope Bitwig can figure out some way of appeasing disgruntled users like myself. Im not interested in being called names or fighting with people over opinions.

[pdxindy]

Firstly I am not putting people into 2 camps, I am putting some ppl into 1 camp of blind devotees and others like myself into the camp of sceptics.

So... 2 camps... I hope you see the humor of that

I used 1.3.1 that is recent enough

1.3.1 was released more than a year ago (14 months). There have been 14 updates and a large amount of bugs fixed since then. I would not want to go back to 1.3.1

[humanbeingbeing]

Firstly I am not putting people into 2 camps, I am putting some ppl into 1 camp of blind devotees and others like myself into the camp of sceptics.

So... 2 camps... I hope you see the humor of that

I used 1.3.1 that is recent enough

1.3.1 was released more than a year ago (14 months). There have been 14 updates and a large amount of bugs fixed since then. I would not want to go back to 1.3.1

Real last reply, you have this knack for quoting out of context, both these statements continued and elaborated, I see FOUR-4 main camps, nuance goes without saying... for or against is the polarity, and people absolutely fall on that spectrum, joking otherwise doesnt make it true. and I used the latest version with todays timestretch bug, not 1.3.1... when I discussed this with you before the version I said was 4-5 months ago, not 14 months ago, it must've been a later version. Todays version still has the awful timing issues viewtopic.php?f=259&t=478125 . I would see the humor but its a horribly maligned argument and stuff that goes within saying shouldn't be reiterated.

[woodsdenis]

1.3.1 was released more than a year ago (14 months). There have been 14 updates and a large amount of bugs fixed since then. I would not want to go back to 1.3.1

Errr if it took 15 updates in 14 months to get 1.3 usable it doesn't really bode well for these constant major features appearing and being stable in a relatively short period does it ?

[pdxindy]

1.3.1 was released more than a year ago (14 months). There have been 14 updates and a large amount of bugs fixed since then. I would not want to go back to 1.3.1

Errr if it took 15 updates in 14 months to get 1.3 usable it doesn't really bode well for these constant major features appearing and being stable in a relatively short period does it ?

If you want to draw that conclusion, you are free to do so.

Obviously, they are about to release 2.0, so during that time, a significant portion of the 2.0 development happened as well.

Also, lots of the bugs that were fixed over the past year were there from 1.0. Getting the core application solid and well structured has taken some starts and stops, re-writes and mistakes. No doubt the developers have learned a lot in the past few years. If the application is a solid foundation now, then most certainly, they can add to it faster than the process of getting to that point.

If that is the case or not, I don't know. I'm willing to pay for v2 to find out. It is an understandable choice if someone is unwilling to do so.

[brownerthanu]

Yes Bitwig has bugs, some of them rather annoying, but if you haven't made any music with it that's on you. I've been churning out tracks with it since day 1. I absolutely will support the software because I'm afraid if it goes away my productivity will plummet.

[smashsystem]

Well, I was THAT short before to open my wallet and going to purchase a BWS license. Long time Live user and beta tester and somehow BWS was always interesting to me because of similar layout and workflow. I wouldn't mind to use it besides Live because the CV possibilities look promising as I started with eurocrack a couple of months ago.

But just at the moment I nearly clicked the "buy" button, I saw the subscription license model........and I sadly closed my wallet.

It would have been nice to get to know you inside out, little wig. Bye...

[UncleMarty]

[SLiC]

If you can't convince people to agree with you, just create new accounts and agree with your self!

[V0RT3X]

If you can't convince people to agree with you, just create new accounts and agree with your self!

It's kind of pathetic that people actually feel the need to do this.

[smashsystem]

If you can't convince people to agree with you, just create new accounts and agree with your self!

Well, I get that it might looks strange because it's my first post here. But really, it's my first KVR account ever. How can I proof I'm not the one you guys thinking I am?