Host rumors.....

[Shazbot]

I was being ironic - no other sequencer is sold in as many stripped down versions as Sonar:

Ah, see that's what I thought! But sometimes it's hard to read irony and sarcasm.

[lowkey]

I think that Freeze, native VST support with full automation (rather than the Sonar workarounds), 32-bit rendering (which is neat for those who master in Audition, etc) and proper ReWire implemetation for Reason are all important features that nowadays are absolutely to be expected in a Professional Windows-based sequencer.

I find it odd that Sonar falls down in all these areas when an inexpensive programme developed by just one guy can outperform it.

don't mean to start a host war, but except for the 32bits rendering about which i've no clue, it'd be fair to notice that all the other features you mention are very well implemented in a way or another.

. Freeze = Bounce to Track
. native VST support => now the Adapter is included in the package and VST support works seamlessly
. Rewire implentation => don't know about Tracktion, but Sonar is known to have the better Rewire implentation among the big sequencers

As an intensive Sonar user i can assure you that the issues you're raising aren't issues at all.

I am a Sonar owner too.There are some cool things with Sonar. Some are unique as far as I know. If this hasnt degraded into another sequencer war by now I dont think it will unless people have a low resistance to Trolls here

We have an opertunity to discuss loves and hates about sequencers we have used. Something Jules, super human as he is, might not have the time to do...He wrote Trackton because he got so pissed off using one of them

[christianmusicmaker]

As an intensive Sonar user i can assure you that the issues you're raising aren't issues at all.

I think Sonar's VST and DX automation provides more options than Tracktion but then Tracktion's automation is more than capable anyway. Also I cannot think of any VST that I have not been able to use in Sonar...yet.

Although I would certainly welcome a complete VST host environment within Sonar *without* using the VST wrapper.

[headquest]

don't mean to start a host war,

No, I don't either - sorry guys!!

but except for the 32bits rendering about which i've no clue,

32-bit is the next level of accuracy for audio, and Sonar doesn't have it yet (I believe all or most of the other - including Tracktion - do). Now I don't claim to be able to hear the difference myself - but as Adobe Audition (which I've just moved over to for mastering/dithering/burning to CD/etc) imports at this new professional standard resolution, I think it's pertinent to export from your sequencer at the same quality.

I'm positive that Sonar 4 will have it...

it'd be fair to notice that all the other features you mention are very well implemented in a way or another.

. Freeze = Bounce to Track

NO - it isn't the same thing at all. Freeze is non-destructive, and easy to do (i.e. ONE mouse click).

Again, pretty much all the sequencers have this now, and I've no doubt Sonar 4 will follow suit...

. native VST support => now the Adapter is included in the package and VST support works seamlessly

I thought so, but apparently not. There's a whole thread elsewhere on KVR dealing with the fact that VST effects paramenters apparently can't be automated directly on the track... reading the thread it seems various forms of bouncing are yet again used as a workaround...

. Rewire implentation => don't know about Tracktion, but Sonar is known to have the better Rewire implentation among the big sequencers

I used to use Cubase SX and ReWire was pretty cluncky. Can't comment on Logic.

But if you follow the thread above you will see that Sonar gives 16 tracks of Reason, as opposed to the full 64 traks of Reason that your get with ReWire in Tracktion. This is unarguably more flexible if you happen to use the two programmes, as I do...

As an intensive Sonar user i can assure you that the issues you're raising aren't issues at all.

I'm glad that Sonar is working for you, and I know many fine musicians who swear by it...

I am eager to get the Sonitus fx Suite and have even considered buying Sonar myself simply to get a better deal overall... but I'll watch what happens with Sonar 4.

Like I said, I know there are some other excellent features in Sonar - great mixing desk, "groove clips", V Sampler, etc...

[christianmusicmaker]

. native VST support => now the Adapter is included in the package and VST support works seamlessly

I thought so, but apparently not. There's a whole thread elsewhere on KVR dealing with the fact that VST effects paramenters apparently can't be automated directly on the track... reading the thread it seems various forms of bouncing are yet again used as a workaround......

Hi there...I have automated VST FX parameters directly on the track using track envelopes in Sonar. The VST was Voxengo's Pristine space. I would like to know which thread on KVR discussed envelope issues with Sonar ...this is just an open discussion as far as I am concerned so no Sequencer WAR talk here, that's pointless.

I am just curious to know what was discussed. Do you have a link?

[headquest]

Hi there...I have automated VST FX parameters directly on the track using track envelopes in Sonar. The VST was Voxengo's Pristine space. I would like to know which thread on KVR discussed envelope issues with Sonar ...this is just an open discussion as far as I am concerned so no Sequencer WAR talk here, that's pointless.

I am just curious to know what was discussed. Do you have a link?

Hi christianmusicmaker

Absolutely NO sequencer wars - ever! Like you I'm just interested.

As you know I keep toying with buying Sonar but have come out against - at least for now. And the thread I refered to is ONE of the things that actually helped me make up my mind (albeit in the negative!)

Here's the link ... you need to stick with it because it gets heated in places, but there are lots of interesting points made by the various contributers...

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=

One reason I nearly bought Sonar is precisely because it looks like it's going to be more professional that Tracktion ... and has the price tag to match.

But I think that when you examine and compare what each product can do you begin to realise that looks and pricing can be deceptive... which isn't to say that's there's a load wrong with Sonar, so don't take me the wrong way.

The real thing is, I think, that I'm actually struggling to accept just how good Tracktion really is. It's actually an exceptional piece of software, and quite unexpectedly so...[/b]

[rockstar_not]

The midi features I've asked for in T2 actually come from a less-expensive sequencer that I've used and defended since 1996 - PGMusic's powertracks pro audio. The biggest price you will pay for this program is $49, and it's regularly on sale for $29.

Regarding Magix, I bought a copy of music studio in 2000, and the midi and audio weren't even the same program; they were independent codes not time-sync'ed or anything like that. I got duped. I would hope that current versions of this 'studio' include just one sequencer that does both audio and midi.

-Scott

[Shazbot]

The midi features I've asked for in T2 actually come from a less-expensive sequencer that I've used and defended since 1996 - PGMusic's powertracks pro audio. The biggest price you will pay for this program is $49, and it's regularly on sale for $29.

Powertracks was the first MIDI program I ever used, and while it's still a good deal for the price, and was especially a good deal even just a couple years ago, I don't think PG kept up with advancing PT enough to compete with programs coming out now like Tracktion.

I would like to see Tracktion have an Event List editor like PT has, as well as the bar view editor to be able to cut and paste entire sections of songs, like you've mention.

[christianmusicmaker]

Hi christianmusicmaker

Absolutely NO sequencer wars - ever! Like you I'm just interested.

Here's the link ... you need to stick with it because it gets heated in places, but there are lots of interesting points made by the various contributers...

http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... highlight=


The real thing is, I think, that I'm actually struggling to accept just how good Tracktion really is. It's actually an exceptional piece of software, and quite unexpectedly so...[/b]

I have been there...you think £50 for all this?

I actually tracked that thread! You go into a real battle with Spaceman! Thankfully it all cooled down in the end.

It seems to me like the original poster had Sonar but frankly had not tried to
right click on the track > scroll down to Envelopes > Create track envelopes > then simply click on the name of the plug he wants to automate.

Then you will get a box that will give you the parameters available for automation tick the boxes / parameters you want to automate and your envelope will appear on the track...

Anyway did you get round to trying out P5? I am hoping version 2 will be a DXi and a VSTi host so good bye to rewire when that happens.

[Mr. Slater's Parrot]

But I think that when you examine and compare what each product can do you begin to realise that looks and pricing can be deceptive... which isn't to say that's there's a load wrong with Sonar, so don't take me the wrong way.

Sonar isn't perfect, of course. But it has some features that do justify the price, IMHO -- assuming that one uses them, that is. For example, I heavily use linked (ghost) midi clips in every project. I'm unwilling to use a host that doesn't support this -- maybe that's just my workflow. I also open up multiple midi tracks in the same midi editor in every project. I also use a midi event list editor in every project. And, looped recording. Etc. For me, those features are essential to my workflow. And they work wonderfully in Sonar. It's not worth it to me to try to use a host that doesn't have those features (in an easy-to-use format). And things that like -- and there are more -- make Sonar's price well worth it to me. For others that might not use all of these great features, there could be a different perspective.

[headquest]

But I think that when you examine and compare what each product can do you begin to realise that looks and pricing can be deceptive... which isn't to say that's there's a load wrong with Sonar, so don't take me the wrong way.

Sonar isn't perfect, of course. But it has some features that do justify the price, IMHO -- assuming that one uses them, that is. For example, I heavily use linked (ghost) midi clips in every project. I'm unwilling to use a host that doesn't support this -- maybe that's just my workflow. I also open up multiple midi tracks in the same midi editor in every project. I also use a midi event list editor in every project. And, looped recording. Etc. For me, those features are essential to my workflow. And they work wonderfully in Sonar. It's not worth it to me to try to use a host that doesn't have those features (in an easy-to-use format). And things that like -- and there are more -- make Sonar's price well worth it to me. For others that might not use all of these great features, there could be a different perspective.

Thanks for that, and I hear where you're coming from...

The MIDI editing in Tracktion is too basic, I agree, and I think most people on this forum will agree on that...

SO IF:

Sonar 4 has Freeze, VST (without wrapper), 32-bit rendering...

AND IF:

Tracktion 2 has decent MIDI editing (including better piano roll and Event List)...

THEN I think it will be more fair to make comparisons. And I think they will be head-to-head for mest sequencer award (Windows, mid-price range ).

In the meantime, its swings and rounderbouts.

For my part I prefer Tracktion right now...because I do mostly audio work... but if T2 doesn't have decent MIDI then I think its a safe bet to say I'll be migrating to Sonar 4 (assuming it has freeze).

[headquest]

I have been there...you think £50 for all this?

I actually tracked that thread! You go into a real battle with Spaceman! Thankfully it all cooled down in the end.

A couple of hours in detention sorted him out

Nah, we're best friends now

It seems to me like the original poster had Sonar but frankly had not tried to
right click on the track > scroll down to Envelopes > Create track envelopes > then simply click on the name of the plug he wants to automate.

Then you will get a box that will give you the parameters available for automation tick the boxes / parameters you want to automate and your envelope will appear on the track...

Yep, well I definitely need to bow to your superior knowledge there . In spite of the mixed views expressed in that thread, I assume that Sonar can handle automation with the best of 'em. Also, if I used Sonar I would probably pretty much stick to the Sonitus FX anyway

Anyway did you get round to trying out P5? I am hoping version 2 will be a DXi and a VSTi host so good bye to rewire when that happens.

Call me stupid, but I really didn't "get" Project5... perhaps its just that I'm not used to the cakewalk way of doing things?

Anyway, P5 seems to be dubbed a "Reason" replacement, and if I wanted another self-contained programme in the "soft studio" mould I think I would probably look at FL Studio. In fact, now I come to mention it...

On a more general front, I keep blowing hot and cold regarding Sonar... the Sonitus FX are about £200 on their own, and Sonar 3 Producer is available from Digital Village for about £330, which somehow seems like a tempting deal...

Even with Tracktion and Live (and Reason) I still lack a programme that does pro-MIDI editing. WIth a better piano roll and an Event List I may well get more into MIDI again - I certainly used to use more MIDI when I worked in Cubase than I do these days.... but these days, the stuff that impresses me is usually the programmes that handle audio recording in a "no-fuss" manner and give great results.

Adobe Audition is now top of my shopping list. Although I have a few minor niggles, (heavy CPU being the main one) it seems to me to add something different to my present mix.

If I was to get Audition and Sonar then Tracktion may become somewhat redundant in my personal setup, but I would still use it as my main software for teaching my students (Yep, I'm a music teacher!) as the software is so easy to get the hang of, meaning that newcomers can concentrate on developing their musical skills and understanding.

I do think that Tracktion is very special, and that's probably why I'm draggin my feet about jumping towards anything else... But right now the frontrunners are Sonar for its MIDI editing and Sonitus FX... and Audition for its awesome audio capabilities.

One question before I leave you in peace... can Sonar run as a ReWire client/slave?

[christianmusicmaker]

One question before I leave you in peace... can Sonar run as a ReWire client/slave?

In a word...no. Client or master yes but slave no! Only FL and Live4 to the best of my knowledge can do that out of the more popular and well known applications out there, that is probably why they are so popular.

Sonar 4...unlikely to have this. If you do go for Sonar why not wait for version 4? You spoke of a good price for version 3 I would hold out for version 4, it will also give you more time to see what T2 may offer.

I think your previous analysis is right. If Tracktion and Sonar get the features we think they should have, it may only be video features and surround that separate Tracktion and Sonar in Sonars favour but the price difference (if Mackie don't push it up too high) should sway heavily in Tracktion's favour.There will likely be very little else to choose from between Sonar 4 and Tracktion 2 which would be a sensational achievement for Jules to achieve in just a few years.

Cakewalk may be hoping Mackie play their hand early as I am sure they are aware of Tracktion's following.Then once the dust settles from T2's release they can release Sonar4 later this year.

Cakewalk had a representative from their marketing department answering questions on a 8 - 10 page thread about Kinetic on KVR! So they certainly keep watch. No doubt they would have seen the numerous Live 4 threads as well.

Maybe Jules too is waiting to see what Sonar 4 will provide.Even if he can match the midi fucntionality in Sonar 3 it will be a massive step up for Tracktion.

Everything is riding on the midi implentation in T2. Too little and it spends a year or more playing catch up but if Jules gets it right the big 3 will suddenly have a new member on the PC...making it the big 4.

But there is a twist...whatever is added to Tracktion 2 that EXT does not have already...will very likely make it's way into EXT within a month or two, quite easily I think.

If Jorgen wants to do it he can and will. Midi implentation in EXT is pretty good already and he adds features every 2 -3 weeks!T2 features in EXT is a superb prospect for an EXT user!

EXT is a major player on KVR but does not have the publicity machine that Steinberg, Cakewalk or even Mackie / Trackion has...yet.

As for AA (Adobe Audition)...I too tried the demo and found it to be top draw.It is a superb programme now with rewire as well.

Long answer to a short question sorry!

At least you are taking your time headquest...hopefully you have found some of the advice I have given you in recent posts helpful.

[optilude]

I think people's expectations are getting a little bit out of control here. I doubt T2 will match Sonar or Cubase feature for feature. I also doubt Jules will be able to catch up with the legions of programmers Cakewalk and Steinberg have, in the same amount of time. I code for a living; I know that there are limits to what can and can't be done by one man, however good he may be.

But - and here's the big but - it doesn't matter. Tracktion, version 1, 2 or 100 is not supposed to be about replacing Cubase in the pro or semi-pro project studio. It's about complementing it, and more importantly, it's about offering some real innovation and intuitive usability to the home users and composers. A friend of mine runs a studio (where my album is currently being recorded) and uses a Fostex multitracker via an O2R and then bounces things down into Cubase for certain post-production tasks. He dreams of running Pro Tools. But he also wants to set up Tracktion 2 when it comes out ('cos he needs MIDI controller support) on a separate machine and use it for working out ideas and for doing quick demo recordings. He also recommends to people who want to set up a home rig that they go with Tracktion, because it's so powerful and cost effective.

What's wrong with staying in that niche? It will take a long, long time before a sizable segment of the market currently embattled by Cubase and Sonar considers Tracktion, and the reasons are deeper than purely technical. As I've said many times before, I doubt Jules or Mackie would ever want to be in such direct competition with Cubase or Sonar anyway.

Martin

[jtxx000]

As I've said many times before, I doubt Jules or Mackie would ever want to be in such direct competition with Cubase or Sonar anyway.

Why not? I see lots of people here moving from Cubase to Tracktion, when T2 comes out it may bring more over. People are getting tired of the old way of doing things, workflow is the latest trend and it's cubase and sonar that need to catch up w/ T in that respect.