Host rumors.....

[AD80]

I doubt T2 will match Sonar or Cubase feature for feature.

Exactly. Its not about how many features but how they're implemented. And theres also some features T has that Cubase and Sonar do not.
I dropped Cubase for T a long time ago and could not be happier. Eventhough Cubase does have a lot more features.

[lowkey]

Trackton is made using Juice. Jules has not realeased all the code to with Trackton (rightly so) but if you look at what Juice is capible of you'd know T2 is going to be something very special. Even if T2 does not live up to everyones expectations out of the blocks Jules has developed a very capible set of tools to adapt quickly.

EXT is another very powerful application that works very well with T. Even now Im running out of reasons to open Sonar. All (!) Jorgen and Jules have to do is come up with an an adapter for DXI's, implement the looping tools Sonar has and work on the midi side and you'd see alot of people switching.

Both applications can already do some things the more expensive sequencers cant.

[headquest]

I think people's expectations are getting a little bit out of control here. I doubt T2 will match Sonar or Cubase feature for feature.

Actually I think that what we probably all want is to have Sonar's features within Tracktion's workflow/ease of use

Chances of Sonar's interface being redisigned to promote workflow/ease of use? Fairly slim, I'd say...

Chances of professional features being added to Tracktion on an ongoing basis? Pretty high, if experience so far and signs of intention are anything to go by.

Based on this, I think that Tracktion stands a good chance of catching up and overtaking any of the other players, but starting with Sonar (which is cheaper than - and marketed at a slightly different catchment to Cubase/Logic).

This is all rqually true for Live 4 as well (which is already at the point of seriously challenging the big boys now ... and Tracktion 2 won't be far behind, I think...)

I also doubt Jules will be able to catch up with the legions of programmers Cakewalk and Steinberg have, in the same amount of time.

Legions of programmers can actually slow things down. Jules implemented Freeze in Tracktion in just a few days. How long have Cakewalk been working on it now (months? years?). And how about Steinberg, who have it working for instruments, but still not for effects, which is kind of more important (because we're talking audio and midi tracks)

What's wrong with staying in that niche? It will take a long, long time before a sizable segment of the market currently embattled by Cubase and Sonar considers Tracktion, and the reasons are deeper than purely technical. As I've said many times before, I doubt Jules or Mackie would ever want to be in such direct competition with Cubase or Sonar anyway.

Martin

From the comments he has repeatedly made, I think Jules intends Tracktion (in terms of functionality) to replace Cubase et al. He has made it clear he hates them and that's why he embarked on buildling something new from the ground up.

Many have already switched from Cubase and Sonar over to Tracktion, and you rarely hear of people switching in the opposite direction...

[lowkey]

Id really love Trackton to inherit some of Sonars features. The way it handles looping is amazing and the midi editing is DEEEEEP.

For instance its the only sequencer I know of (correct me if Im wrong) that supports SYX, a MidiOX system of storing names of patches, paramiters and sequences from my AN1X. Sonar also has a very good SYSEX editor. Your proably thing "What the hell do I need an SYSEX editor for?...I only use soft synths" Even if hardware synths die (!) there will be hardware interfaces. The best way to ensure compatiblity with the most sequencers is through using midi. SYSEX is the most flexible type. Even the best (if alot of forums are to be belived) hardware interface, the Mackie Controller, uses midi instead of something else. I know many of you dont have any hardware instruments but stuff like this is important to peeps who do.

Im not ever selling my AN1X no matter what comes out.

[optilude]

Why not? I see lots of people here moving from Cubase to Tracktion, when T2 comes out it may bring more over. People are getting tired of the old way of doing things, workflow is the latest trend and it's cubase and sonar that need to catch up w/ T in that respect.

Agreed. I just think that the users who switch will have been the ones on the fringe of Cubase's core focus, for whom Cubase probably wasn't a very well suited in the first place (and I'd wager a lot of switchers will have been using pirated versions of Cubase, too). For those running a pro or semi-pro studio recording into Cubase, which as far as I'm aware is the market Steinberg focuses on the most (cut-down versions such as SL/Cubasis aside, which normally just serve as a stepping stone into the real thing), Tracktion's not going to provide an alternative - but as I mentioned, it may proove to be an excellent complement to the main DAW workhorse.

[optilude]

Chances of professional features being added to Tracktion on an ongoing basis? Pretty high, if experience so far and signs of intention are anything to go by.

A fair point in principle, but there are many features that Tracktion's core following simply don't need or want. At some stage, you have to draw the line between bloat and boasting-factor features, and those that will really make a difference.

Legions of programmers can actually slow things down. Jules implemented Freeze in Tracktion in just a few days. How long have Cakewalk been working on it now (months? years?). And how about Steinberg, who have it working for instruments, but still not for effects, which is kind of more important (because we're talking audio and midi tracks)

This will have had something to do with the internal design of the application, not the manpower. Whether that's just design skill or different tradeoffs along the way, who knows. But typically, maintaining a codebase over the years makes certain things fall into the "nigh impossible" category.

From the comments he has repeatedly made, I think Jules intends Tracktion (in terms of functionality) to replace Cubase et al. He has made it clear he hates them and that's why he embarked on buildling something new from the ground up.

Many have already switched from Cubase and Sonar over to Tracktion, and you rarely hear of people switching in the opposite direction...

Well, yes. But Jules (AFAIK) doesn't run a studio where people come in and go "what, you're not running Cubase/Sonar/Logic/ProTools, you can't be very professional" (stupid though that is, it's all about perceptions). Tracktion is a hundred times better than Cubase for what I do with it, and for what most of us in this forum do with it, I'd imagine. But what may be good workflow for me sitting in front of my laptop trying to make some music may well be wrong for someone trying to translate what they're doing on a big bad-ass analogue recording console into the digital domain, for instance.

Most, if not all, pieces of software that try to be all things to all people fall on their face weighed down by bloat on the one side and conceptual and logical inconsistencies on the other. Tracktion does so well to avoid it, because it has found it's place among the user base and the core concept that Tracktion offers (nevermind bugs or specific features missing) fits it so well.

My original point was that walking around saying T2's gonna drive Cubase out of the market (obviously exaggerated, but still) is a bit over-enthusasitc; it's also probably the wrong thing for the Tracktion world - and particularly for Mackie/Jules - to strive for.

[jtxx000]

I thought that Pro Tools was the industry standard for "pro" studios...
Edit: nevermind, you just said that in the post you wrote when I was writing this.

[lowkey]

The thing that makes Trackton great and will ensure Trackton 2 is as usable as Trackton 10++ Ultra?

Filters.

Other programs have to add a menus there and a check box here to add new features. A few updates down the line and you have the situation the Big 3 are in. You need a map to use them.

Now Im not saying for a moment Jules would or should implement everything the older sequencers have but if he did and he used filters to do it the work flow would not change.

Heres some "what if" examples...

You have your a loop and you want to slice it up? Drag down the "Transient to midi" filter and place it on your audio. Adjust the settings in the filter dialoge then hit "Chop". Hey presto! You have audio slices loaded into a sampler filter with the midi part to go with it.

Want to store a midi dump of your hardware synth? Drag the midi in to the track you want then drag a "SYSEX" filter to that track. Click "Receive" in the filter dialogue then send your dump. Done and dusted.

Because of the way Trackton is designed even the wildest "use once in a life time" feature wont affect your work flow because "you select them when you need them" not "you try to find where the programmers have hidden the menu".

[headquest]

Well, yes. But Jules (AFAIK) doesn't run a studio where people come in and go "what, you're not running Cubase/Sonar/Logic/ProTools, you can't be very professional" (stupid though that is, it's all about perceptions). Tracktion is a hundred times better than Cubase for what I do with it, and for what most of us in this forum do with it, I'd imagine. But what may be good workflow for me sitting in front of my laptop trying to make some music may well be wrong for someone trying to translate what they're doing on a big bad-ass analogue recording console into the digital domain, for instance.

Most, if not all, pieces of software that try to be all things to all people fall on their face weighed down by bloat on the one side and conceptual and logical inconsistencies on the other. Tracktion does so well to avoid it, because it has found it's place among the user base and the core concept that Tracktion offers (nevermind bugs or specific features missing) fits it so well.

My original point was that walking around saying T2's gonna drive Cubase out of the market (obviously exaggerated, but still) is a bit over-enthusasitc; it's also probably the wrong thing for the Tracktion world - and particularly for Mackie/Jules - to strive for.

I pretty much agree with you on - some good points!

I think the "mid-price" market is where the blur is though...

At the top end Pro Tools/Samplitude/Logic/SAW studio/Nuendo will continue to rule - no doubts there.

Tracktion has - imho - blown apart the bottom end of the market, leaving programmes like Cubasis/Home Studio/Music Maker et al. in the dust in terms of features. It has also in the process redefined workflow for many people, and demonstrated that software doesn't have to follow the hardware paradigm or emulate recording studio legacy.

The Mackie link looks set to take Tracktion further towards "pro" status and acceptance too. As the Mackie logo and link gets ever more clearly established (e.g. through the plugins, external controller support, etc) Tracktion will inevitably move up a rung on the established ladder...

So Tracktion is now, imho, very underpriced, and I have no doubt that there will be a noticeable price rise for T2, and that it will be totally justified in terms of where the programme is going.

Tracktion users do repeatedly ask for more features, contrary to one of the points you make, and Jules has particularly indicated that MIDI will get a full overhaul. This is just what it needs, and will hopefully include Event List editing, a better piano roll, and an end once and for all to the note-dropping bugs that have repeatedly been discussed on this forum. Also, if we're very lucky, we may get notation (which as a classically trained musician I would personally loove to see) but I suspect that will go into T3 in a couple more years!

I think that over the next 3-5 years we could see Tracktion and Live accepted on a par with programmes such as Sonar (certainly), and yes - even Cubase.

Recording Engineers want the legacy features of Pro Tools, et al.

Musicians want a good range of features in an easy to use format, which is what Tracktion seems to be striving to provide. So long as Jules keeps that focus, I think the sky's the limit in the "home" and "project" studio market...

[soulata]

...and I'd wager a lot of switchers will have been using pirated versions of Cubase, too.

so right.

Also, if we're very lucky, we may get notation (which as a classically trained musician I would personally loove to see)

hopefully not. cubase and logic both have notation and it sucks compared to Sibelius or Finale. it's on the "almost useless" side at least for me and I feel it bloats the program.

imho

K

[Shazbot]

Also, if we're very lucky, we may get notation (which as a classically trained musician I would personally loove to see)

hopefully not. cubase and logic both have notation and it sucks compared to Sibelius or Finale. it's on the "almost useless" side at least for me and I feel it bloats the program.

I agree. Notation seems best left to programs specific to that. Unless it can be done very well and very smoothly (in which case I'd be all for it), I'd prefer to see other enhancements made.

[TheWall]

I think this is where some of us differ in our views: Why would Tracktion need to be "accepted on a par with programmes such as Sonar (certainly), and yes - even Cubase"? accepted by whom?

The author of my previous host once boasted in his mailinglist that his program is soooo good soooo professional that all the big name hosts will be taken down. Reading that made me sick. A wrong positioning can have a chain reaction: a wrong pricing, a wrong techsupport attitude, a wrong development focus.

The moment Tracktion starts to identify with the mindset of Sonar/Cubase/Logic is the moment Tracktion ceases to be what it is.

[Lunch Money]

The moment Tracktion starts to identify with the mindset of Sonar/Cubase/Logic is the moment Tracktion ceases to be what it is.

That's it, exactly. Whether or not it replaces "pro solutions", and whether or not it remains 'merely' (no small accolade, this) the best of the low-end is irrelevant. Whatever direction it takes, it must continue to take on its own terms and in its own way in order to stay vital and important.

Greg

[headquest]

Also, if we're very lucky, we may get notation (which as a classically trained musician I would personally loove to see)

hopefully not. cubase and logic both have notation and it sucks compared to Sibelius or Finale. it's on the "almost useless" side at least for me and I feel it bloats the program.

I wasn't thinking in terms of music printing (which is what those other programmes do).

I have Sibelius 3, which is the only software I've found that outputs in the format my publisher requires (I have several books of music commercially available). No way would I want or ever expect Tracktion - or Cubase/Sonar/etc - to replace or compete with that!!

But...
A notation view in a sequencer can be a useful method of note entry for the music-reading musician, and that would personally suit my workflow. Piano roll and "playing it in" are fine as well of course, but choice can be a good thing, and enables felixibility when working.

I agree about other features too of course! And notation is certainly not top of the list! (better piano roll, event list editing both higher up the list. also mp3 export would be useful to me).

Hope that clirifies what I was banging on about in the last post!

On the subject of Tracktion competing with other sequencers, all I can say is that I want good features presented in a user-friendly interface, and I don't particularly want to have to keep forking out for two or more sequencers to suit different needs...

And as far as I can see, Tracktion 2 and Sonar 4 - as soon as they arrive - will both be in direct cometition for MY money. And as I doubt I shall be alone in wanting to choose between them (and various others in the pipeline...) then that puts them in competition with each other, whether people like to admit it or not...[/i][/b]

[lowkey]

I could not care less if other people think Trackton is "Professional" I just want the tools I need to make music in one place as much as possible.

Lets talk about this "proffesional" crap as it keeps on cropping up. Pro Tools is only used in alot of studio's because the studio's had to make a big investment in it. Pro Tools was the cheaper version of an earlier DAW war and it eventully won because it was cheaper (!). Pro Tools isnt some sort of magic. Ive seen it and it is crap. If I was to get signed tomorrow Pro tools would be the very last thing I would buy. If you was to have a look at the sales of Pro Tools you'd probably see their sales are mainly made from upgrades to a captive user base.

Making quality music from home has been a reality from the 80's and has been responsible for alot of music forms that would be far too expensive to do in a traditional studio.

If you take your WAV's or AIFF's to a studio to be mastered yes they will probably have alot more tools than you have because they have been doing it for a long time and they have to be flexible ie the next person to walk through their doors could be a punk band or a rap band.

What matters at the end of the day is if you, not some other person or the man down the pub can work with your tools to get the job done.