u-he

SJ_Digriz · Post by **SJ_Digriz** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:28 pm

dayjob wrote:
Urs wrote:Hmm, yeah, pretty disappointed by my current woggly experiments... needs more experimentation.

As for function generators, I can certainly see some in Z3. The global LFOs are getting ditched for voice-based ones that do it all, so there's a vacancy or two in that department. Thinking Maths-style with (self-)modulatable rise and fall times. Good for quick and dirty extra LFO and envelope needs.
that sounds great. if you can model the exponential shape of that MATHS attack i'd be floored. being able to turn on/off cycling via a mod source would also be fun. but the shape of that attack is my fav thing about it. so great for FM plonks and bass things.

In addition to the Function Generator, I have one of these that is similar. The ability to CV the AD is awesome. Then to be able to link the 2 AD setups in various modes and output combinations can create some really wild LFO shapes.

Terrafractyl · Post by **Terrafractyl** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:46 pm

Urs wrote:Hmm, yeah, pretty disappointed by my current woggly experiments... needs more experimentation.

As for function generators, I can certainly see some in Z3. The global LFOs are getting ditched for voice-based ones that do it all, so there's a vacancy or two in that department. Thinking Maths-style with (self-)modulatable rise and fall times. Good for quick and dirty extra LFO and envelope needs.

Yes please!
I have been wondering why you don't see more of these in software, IMO there is something very 'playbable' about rise and fall times with separate controls, plus they sound great for FM... my 281 is possibly one of my most used modules ever!

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:37 pm

Hehehe, yeah, I like Maths & Co.

However, please keep in mind that we're not going to have them as sound sources, nor will we have cables to drag out from the EOR or EOC outputs. This might work in a fully modular envrionment without much care for CPU, but in Zebra I'll be happy just to provide for all that extra functionality that goes beyond just LFOs and just envelopes. They're just utterly useful as LFOs, envelopes, envelope followers, maybe even compressors (well, asym AR envs, when used with VCAs, but I don't yet know how to run audio through them)

I do have Maths, Terminal and - just in - a Sport Modulator. If you know of an alternative that brings exceptionally more value to the table (at a price point and delivery date much below a Buchla 281e), please let me know. I'm on Eurocrack though... space...

(note to myself: Try function generator in Reaktor Blocks for audio stuff tomorrow... been a surprisingy blissful experience with it so far)

EvilDragon · Post by **EvilDragon** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:51 pm

Note to Urs: while on Blocks, check out...

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/9093/

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/9149/

https://www.native-instruments.com/en/r ... show/9997/

SJ_Digriz · Post by **SJ_Digriz** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:52 pm

Hey Urs, I completely understand this is not intended to be Bazille part II

I think what I personally was getting at is that LFO as a static sine,triangle, ramp, square with some offset and attenuator capability is unnecessarily restrictive. If they can open it up in hardware in the 50s/60s, you'd think we could open it up a bit on a computer these days.

You were already heading down that path, and I just had a random mind poof. So, carry on .. as you are far more suited to come up with something cool for that than I am. But, you got my attention with the concept of providing a per voice LFO. For some reason I have in my 3rd working brain cell that doing so would be exceptionally CPU intense. I think one of my favorite modular functions is the ability to have a working 3 voice (really 3 OSC, as voice could be any combination of sound sources) synth, with a separate trigger and LFO function per OSC.

SJ_Digriz · Post by **SJ_Digriz** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:54 pm

Urs wrote: (at a price point and delivery date much below a Buchla 281e), please let me know.

hehehe this is why I built my own MU clone for the 281 and 266. I wanted them before I die and without having to sell my children.

SJ_Digriz · Post by **SJ_Digriz** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:58 pm

So, while I'm waxing philosophical about Buchla stuff, a nice Low Pass Gate filter emulation would be nice as well. There's nothing like that juicy squishiness from a really slow vactrol.

dayjob · Post by **dayjob** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:59 pm

Urs wrote:Hehehe, yeah, I like Maths & Co.

However, please keep in mind that we're not going to have them as sound sources, nor will we have cables to drag out from the EOR or EOC outputs. This might work in a fully modular envrionment without much care for CPU, but in Zebra I'll be happy just to provide for all that extra functionality that goes beyond just LFOs and just envelopes. They're just utterly useful as LFOs, envelopes, envelope followers, maybe even compressors (well, asym AR envs, when used with VCAs, but I don't yet know how to run audio through them)

I do have Maths, Terminal and - just in - a Sport Modulator. If you know of an alternative that brings exceptionally more value to the table (at a price point and delivery date much below a Buchla 281e), please let me know. I'm on Eurocrack though... space...

(note to myself: Try function generator in Reaktor Blocks for audio stuff tomorrow... been a surprisingy blissful experience with it so far)

maths as a sound source wouldn't make much sense in zebra.. not for me anyways.. using one in place of an adsr on a VCA would be very useful though... because of that attack when in exponential mode. best plonk ever.

multiple A/D envelopes w/modulation of A/D and a sum output can be pretty fun and funky.

i haven't tried reaktor blocks yet so can't comment there.

looking forward to zebra updates more and more. thanks for chiming into this thread Urs.

SJ_Digriz · Post by **SJ_Digriz** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:05 pm

By the way, I think the Intellijel Quadra + Expander are as close as you'll get to a 281 in Euro. But, the waveforms are on switches

. On the plus side they are available for around $375ish for the pair (not sure the price over where you are). I can't attest to how accurate a clone though as I don't have Eurorack. I'm just going off info from Muffs.

Terrafractyl · Post by **Terrafractyl** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:59 am

SJ_Digriz wrote:By the way, I think the Intellijel Quadra + Expander are as close as you'll get to a 281 in Euro. ....

Beat me to it. I havn't used a quadra either but it looks to be pretty much the same. I also built a DIY clone of the 281, and it sits next to a Serge VCS, which I think I actually prefer... although it lacks the power of the dual FGs (with a mixed output) in my 281, I found just the single VCS is capable of a lot! It also just feels a tad different under extreme circumstances like audio rate stuff and when being heavily modulated.

Hmm I guess I can live with them not being available for Audio use, as long as you have that high def mode and they can go up to 10khz?

! hehe

Terrafractyl · Post by **Terrafractyl** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:13 am

Urs wrote: I do have Maths, Terminal and - just in - a Sport Modulator. If you know of an alternative that brings exceptionally more value to the table (at a price point and delivery date much below a Buchla 281e), please let me know. I'm on Eurocrack though... space...

The Doepfer VCS is pretty cheap at 180$. It is only a single function Generator, but it offers a ever so slightly different take.
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/doepfer-a-171-2-vcs

Not sure if you are looking at VCS/DUSG clones / nor am I sure (without digging up schematics), really how different they are to 281 clones in terms of circuitry. I do remember that they use pretty different IC's, and I seem to remember reading somewhere that Maths takes a lot of its front end (like the CV inputs) from the Serge. So I guess Maths takes a bit from both...?
Its definitely takes the OR idea from the 281
I don't own a Maths so I'm guessing a bit here.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:56 am

Well, hehe, for me it's merely the concept that counts than "cloning accuracy". I don't think I'm ever going to circuit model anything Buchla-style rather than figure out about the value of its features.

I muchly prefer coming up with my own designs, but I wouldn't want to miss functionality that might be essential.

A lowpass gate for Zebra doesn't have the same value as in a modular synth with lots of trigger sources and limited patch space. At this time, Zebra pretty much only has Note Ons as triggers and plenty of things to do with that. An LPG on the other hand is a good way to get filter, amplifier and envelope out of one single unit when one has multiple sound sources, multiple independent triggers and so on. I'm not saying that it wouldn't be worth exploring - but then, Zebra was never about "everything imaginable", it's about "these few things work together nicely". Or, to put it freely after Ludwig M., an LPG might not exactly be "less is more" for Zebra, when it is exactly that for a modular synthesizer.

We shall see

(btw., I find the sheer number of available Reaktor modules a bit overwhelming. I wouldn't want to spend days to figure out which function generator I like best, which modulator to make my goto source and so on. It's amazing how much effort people put into this, but there's also a lot of conceptual redundancy. Which is why, for instance, in Eurocrack I gravitate towards certain brands, and sometimes buy the same module twice rather than different modules for the same purpose.)

(also, with all this stuff in mind - Zebra 2.8 is yet to come out and will not have any of these rewritten modules... now we just need to make the new GUI work on Windows... aaaargh)

nilhartman · Post by **nilhartman** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:48 am

"I'm speechless. I'm without speech." Sounds so, so promising.
Funnily, the more I read your posts about Z3 Urs, the curiouser I get about... Bazille's evolution hehe.

SJ_Digriz · Post by **SJ_Digriz** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:12 pm

I certainly understand that you have to put in things that work in the context of the Zebra architecture. Things that make sense for modular applications don't necessarily translate. It's just fun to ponder potential capabilities and possibly borrow some of the bits and bobs that do make sense. Which is what it sound like you are already doing based on the discussion here. Regardless of what ends up there, I know Z3 will be killer. And, like many here I'm really excited for it, even though I know it's a long ways out yet.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:26 pm

Yep, it's still, a long way to go.

I also still have stuff to do for Zebra 2.8, but that one has a feature freeze until after Superbooth. Don't wanna break anything.

Anyhow, I think in a few weeks we'll have a few of the main modules in new shape. From then it'll permeate through the rest of u-he. And then I guess it'll take up some momentum when other developers get involved (actually, Sascha has quietly been working on a new set of modules for Z3 as well).

u-he

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