Hello! I'm curious about some commentary about this test posted here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-c ... -data.html
It seems like the poster is responsive to feedback if there is some improvement to be done, however it does not seem to paint Satin in a particularly good light.
Satin in yet another multi-test
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- KVRAF
- 4265 posts since 21 Oct, 2001 from my bolthole in the south pacific
Some pretty bizarre stuff in his interpretation.Ok so what causes real tape to handle the dynamic range differently? It’s certainly not compression. Nor is it limiting. It seems more related to the difference in level over the domain of time - almost like the tape can’t really keep up with the faster high level transients - like the travel from the bottom of the waveform to the top takes too long for the tape while “drawing” the waveform and it realizes it needs to start heading back down already. I wouldn’t really know how to explain it better and it might even be that I’m way off with my analysis, but that’s why I’m also interested in what you guys have to say of all this. Can this type of behavior even be modelled? I don’t know, that’s really a question for the really people behind the algorithms!
"It is certainly not compression." Bullshit. It is precisely compression and he even quotes the difference in dynamic range. He then tries to interpret the "state of mind" of the tape. Not much of a scientist. He is seeing the non linear behaviour of tape dealing with a hot signal - compression and saturation.
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- u-he
- 30222 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
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Robert Randolph Robert Randolph https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7328 - KVRAF
- 2226 posts since 25 May, 2003 from Saint Petersburg, Florida
It seems interesting to me, but his interpretations of the results seems a bit suspect though.Urs wrote:Do I need to check this out or should I just ignore?
From reading the thread the author does seem receptive to corrections, so I'd think that may make it worth looking in to.
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- u-he
- 30222 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Well, if he read Satin's user manual he'd see where we come from and what we did.
Unfortunately, we can't roam the internet and correct random people's views. If he thinks something is wrong with Satin, he can use our support forum.
Unfortunately, we can't roam the internet and correct random people's views. If he thinks something is wrong with Satin, he can use our support forum.
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- KVRAF
- 3506 posts since 12 May, 2011
That post seems irrelevant to me because, unless those 3 plugins are designed to emulate either of the 2 tape machines, there is nothing to compare.
All 3 plugins are generic tape emulations, none of them modeled on actual machines.
A bit like comparing Tone2's Saurus to a Minimoog and reporting that they sound different.
That's what I think...
All 3 plugins are generic tape emulations, none of them modeled on actual machines.
A bit like comparing Tone2's Saurus to a Minimoog and reporting that they sound different.
That's what I think...
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- KVRAF
- 2321 posts since 24 Jun, 2006 from London, England
I thought the thread was saying the polar opposite:
Listening in many different monitoring environments - subjectively - to my ears the difference between the two tape machines are of similar magnitude than the difference between one tape machine and one emulation. I could not reliably distinguish the real tape machines from the emulations while only using my ears!
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- KVRAF
- 3506 posts since 12 May, 2011
My point was that unless you compare like with like the results are not worth it.
I didn't read all the post (too anal for me!) but did the guy test the hardware with different tapes? In my experience, tape from different manufacturers can make a big difference to the sound. (Memories of Memorex vs BASF vs TDK cassettes. I always preferred TDK.
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Bottom line for me: I'm more than happy with my copy of Satin.
I didn't read all the post (too anal for me!) but did the guy test the hardware with different tapes? In my experience, tape from different manufacturers can make a big difference to the sound. (Memories of Memorex vs BASF vs TDK cassettes. I always preferred TDK.
) Bottom line for me: I'm more than happy with my copy of Satin.
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- u-he
- 30222 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
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- KVRAF
- 4081 posts since 28 Jan, 2011 from MEXICO
I don't see any intention at all by the OP in that thread, he is just making measurements. He is not putin Satin in a negative light or anything.
The methodology is laid out and is easy to see what he did and why he reached those conclusions.
In fact I would find interesting if other developers commented on that post and we got to know how they measure all things going on.
The methodology is laid out and is easy to see what he did and why he reached those conclusions.
In fact I would find interesting if other developers commented on that post and we got to know how they measure all things going on.
dedication to flying
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- u-he
- 30222 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin
Well, I can't read (+ grasp) all of that atm, I just went by the OP in this thread saying "it does not seem to paint Satin in a particularly good light". Which then to me sounds like, had he really intended to ask developers, why didn't he?
Anyhow, I need to ignore these things. Otherwise I'll spend the rest of my life on forums arguing test methods. Some of the Repro-1 tests on the internet were disastrous, at least one online magazine has teleported its reputation to oblivion. We'll soon have the next product out that lends itself for such tests, and as the more products the more such tests, the more tests also done under weird assumptions or even with a great heap of incompetence. Yeah, not really looking forward to that...
Anyhow, I need to ignore these things. Otherwise I'll spend the rest of my life on forums arguing test methods. Some of the Repro-1 tests on the internet were disastrous, at least one online magazine has teleported its reputation to oblivion. We'll soon have the next product out that lends itself for such tests, and as the more products the more such tests, the more tests also done under weird assumptions or even with a great heap of incompetence. Yeah, not really looking forward to that...
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Funkybot's Evil Twin Funkybot's Evil Twin https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=116627
- KVRAF
- 12495 posts since 16 Aug, 2006
Keep taking the high road and ignoring this stuff Urs. The only test that matters is the one that begins at my ears and ends in between them. RePro1, Diva, ACE, and Satin all pass that test with flying colors.
This is also why I'm in favor of manufacturers posting A/B's. There are those that argue that the results are being skewed, which certainly CAN be true, but it's also pretty obvious when that's happening (like only offering one clip at a pretty generic/static setting vs multiple clips including some more extreme settings). I know you don't have the resources or inclination to devote time to making your own videos or comparisons, but that's one way to combat that. The other is to ignore it.
This is also why I'm in favor of manufacturers posting A/B's. There are those that argue that the results are being skewed, which certainly CAN be true, but it's also pretty obvious when that's happening (like only offering one clip at a pretty generic/static setting vs multiple clips including some more extreme settings). I know you don't have the resources or inclination to devote time to making your own videos or comparisons, but that's one way to combat that. The other is to ignore it.
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- KVRAF
- 2321 posts since 24 Jun, 2006 from London, England
Yeah I'm not really sure how that conclusion was drawn. The only real reference to the tonal quality of Satin is this paragraph (emphasis mine):Urs wrote:Well, I can't read (+ grasp) all of that atm, I just went by the OP in this thread saying "it does not seem to paint Satin in a particularly good light".
Which I interpret as: anything that sound's problematic straight out of the box can easily be fixed by the various parameters offered from the VST.With Satin you might lose some bass, and Reelbus really eats into the high end with the settings that I did the measurements. See, the best part with the emulations, is that their parameters are really adjustable: Want to tame the VTM’s ridiculous low end bump? No worries, just use the Bass Alignment control! Want to compensate for Reelbus’ weird high frequencies? Just use the Color Adjustment and Low-High emphasis controls. Want more bass with Satin? Increase the head bump. I bet I could’ve gotten the frequency plots resembling each other quite closely with a bit of tweaking.
Seems like there's drama being created where there is none, for some reason !
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Robert Randolph Robert Randolph https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=7328
- KVRAF
- 2226 posts since 25 May, 2003 from Saint Petersburg, Florida
To be fair, he did contact you guys...Urs wrote:Well, I can't read (+ grasp) all of that atm, I just went by the OP in this thread saying "it does not seem to paint Satin in a particularly good light". Which then to me sounds like, had he really intended to ask developers, why didn't he?
Villberg wrote:I first got to say that I am humbled by your presence in this thread! U-he is really one of the best plug-in developers at the moment IMO (though I own none personally, since I'm a completionist and cannot really afford the whole collection right now ). I was actually in contact with your support and asked some help to find the optimal settings before conducting my tests. Rob was helpful enough to point me in the right direction, though he couldn't squeeze much out of Sascha
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- KVRian
- 574 posts since 20 Aug, 2013
He contacted us in October 2016, said he needs the information for a thesis and "it's not going to be overly technical, mainly just focusing on the end result (transient, spectrum and THD response) but I'd still like to match the tape type, calibration etc. as close as possible".
He enquired about the "type of tape modelled", and I told him as much as I could get out of Sascha. Which, granted, was not a lot.
Satin's "vintage" mode goes in the direction of 456 tape, and "modern" mode follows the 900 style.
Never heard back from him since, he never asked for clarification or instructions how to adjust things to mimic certain tapes or effects. Not saying he should've done that, just stating the facts.
He enquired about the "type of tape modelled", and I told him as much as I could get out of Sascha. Which, granted, was not a lot.
Satin's "vintage" mode goes in the direction of 456 tape, and "modern" mode follows the 900 style.
Never heard back from him since, he never asked for clarification or instructions how to adjust things to mimic certain tapes or effects. Not saying he should've done that, just stating the facts.