Zebra3 Info

[re23071998]

i feel like its just so easy to make sounds with when using serum.
but yeah, env and lfo tabbing is the only thing i don't like, and some useless visualisation

[pdxindy]

The visualization of env's and osc's is of no use to me... I know what it's doing without seeing it. The visualization just takes up space that could be used for stuff I want to see (less tabs).

I agree. (Not speaking about Serum in particular, but the trend in general) It's a concept that's based on the underestimation of the human mind. It does help to understand the concept though, and it sells. But then, after some time, it gets in the way.

With Serum in particular, I get people talking to me and asking when we do something with a similar feature set. Which is funny, because I've done that many, many years ago (less .wav import). The visual representation seems to highten the "status" (for lack of better word) of the implemented feature set, as if it was somehow "more" than the same thing when represented with a tad more understatement. I get it though. It looks pretty

Hmm well for Zebra 3 maybe the way to go is to include the visualisation but make it optional - just integrate it in an elegant way. That way you get the popularity of the visualisation for people who like that and the power of non-visualisation for the enlightened people.

But I guess you're doing this. The problem becomes how to integrate visuals in a beautiful way that does not get in the way.

Maybe worthwhile for Hive too because it wants to be more popular.

Popular or powerful...flashy or deep...which do you want to be? It's a conundrum. But maybe you can be both...but then maybe not...

maybe 2 different GUI's?

[vvilms]

Things I like about Serum:
- wavetable editor.
- cleanliness of the oscillators (make for the best sub lows I've achieved).
- ungodly amount of 'filter types'.
- sampler that I can set as an FM source for either of the wavetable oscillators.
- time based params that are defaulted to second/ millisecond labeling, that you can also double click and type in 'note values'.
- chaos generators.
- unison detune modes.
- unison warp.
- unison wavetable position.
- unison stack types.
- ease of plotting points/ adjusting curves in mseg/ lfo.
- drag and drop/ right clicking modulation for anything.
- warp remaps.
- distortion remaps
- mod matrix layout.

Things I don't like about Serum:
- finite number of mod matrix slots.
- inability to loop standard envelopes. (8 lfo's with envelope mod make up for this)
- inability to modulate envelope curves.
- difficulty in setting an mseg to loop at a nonisochronous meter. (Would love to be able to type in "7 bars" or even "7.5 bars" since 15 is my favorite meter, etc.
- only one warp knob per wavetable oscillator. (Blamsoft's Expanse gives you 3 warp knobs for each of its 3 wavetable oscillators --- obviously these oscillators aren't as clean as Serum's.)
- reverb isn't my cup of tea.
- no onboard arp. (using an mseg as a make shift arp is cute)

I'll update this as more things will surely come to me. (spirit of the stairwell and all)

[Cyoon]

If the visuals could optionally be opened in a separat window one could use that for Entertainment purposes on a projector or as live visuals at a party

[Terrafractyl]

OK well I guess I just like things that look pretty. I agree that some of the visuals are perhaps not needed, but hey it just looks 'modern' (whatever that means) with all those things moving around.
Also I did forget to mention the Unison.
The way S's GUI reflects whats going on there was of those 'why does no one else do this?' moment.

and Sorry I didn't mean to poke fun at the MSEGs in Zebra, they are quite old now I know, still work brilliantly, and they have provided me with many awesome patches!

[pdxindy]

and Sorry I didn't mean to poke fun at the MSEGs in Zebra, they are quite old now I know, still work brilliantly, and they have provided me with many awesome patches!

I didn't think you made fun of them... just pointed out that they are not as easy to use as some newer MSEG's - Which is true. Making steps is clunky...

I do like the Zebra MSEG's for general functionality. The separate Attack, Loop and Release portions of the envelope are very useful. And each of them have a speed knob which can be modulated independently. So for example, you can do modulation just on the sound once you release the note.

One of the things I'm looking forward to in Zebra 3 are whatever super duper new MSEG's Urs comes up with!

[Urs]

One of the things I'm looking forward to in Zebra 3 are whatever super duper new MSEG's Urs comes up with!

It's the main reason for the rewrite (and in turn, the main reason for not being backward compatible)

I think I've worked out a nice concept. We'll see

[Cyoon]

If the visuals could optionally be opened in a separat window one could use that for Entertainment purposes on a projector or as live visuals at a party

Is that something you would like Urs?

[Urs]

Things I like about Serum:

More than half of that is already done in Zebra, but some that weren't might cause a trade off CPU load for not much gain. (Not sure if it's possible in Serum, but it's requested often...) One can not combine oscillator detune in large intervals (as opposed to, say, +/- 1 semitone) with realtime wavetable manipulation at a low CPU footprint.

In my view, one does not need all filter types ever imagined. One needs a few which are very well distinguishable and which have loads of responses (LP/HP/BP, different dB/oct etc.). We have a really good concept for this, and we've got quite the expertise in filter design.

The remap feature... I think this is what Zebra has in the "Phase XFer" (no pun intended!) oscillator effect. It maps the current waveform onto the phase of a sine wave. So it makes the phase information editable, IIRC, but omits the necessity to offer a second waveform. I have indeed thought of this (the way Serum does it) quite a lot back in the days and decided to not include a second set of waveforms. There are all sorts of things one can do with a second wave layer, but I stick to my verdict that the outcome is not worth the extra amount of work/complexity put onto the sound designer's shoulders.

My stance on feature bloat in Zebra3 is much like the one we had with Hive - I'll try to reduce whenever possible, e.g. when features that were added to Zebra2 over the years have created redundancy (see VCF vs. XMF modules). I'll also try to simplify. Here's another example:

I have come up with a concept for something like that remap feature that allows for spectacular transistions with very little work. It does not need a secondary phase view, and it reduces the need for large sets of wavetables. My goal is to allow for great wavetable sweeps between just 2 waveforms, instead of 16 or hundreds. I really hope this works out.

[Urs]

If the visuals could optionally be opened in a separat window one could use that for Entertainment purposes on a projector or as live visuals at a party

Is that something you would like Urs?

Yes... unless it delays Zebra3 for another year or so

(We have started separating "the wholeness" of the Zebra3 concepts into "do in 3.0" and "do in 3.x", and I think detachable editor windows have been postponed into .x)

[Cyoon]

hehe ok

it was more about the nice oscilloscope from bazille for example, wich would be nice to have separated and really big.

Or that would also be cool as a single plugin maybe. Like a Zrev, a Zoscope.

[vvilms]

More than half of that is already done in Zebra -

To be clear - I vastly prefer Zebra to Serum.
I was just adding my 2 cents as I've had a bit of time with it, and it didn't seem that many of those had been mentioned yet.

I hadn't realized that about Phase XFer (heh) - I appreciate the explanation.

And of course I favor the quality of the filters in Zebra (or any of your synths) to Serum. That said, I've achieved some interesting things with some of the more batty ones. (Interesting being the key term).

I hear you with regard to the cutting down on bloat, and absolutely appreciate the considerable thought that goes into these.

Also, the last paragraph has me marginally horrified.
><;;;

[Urs]

To be clear - I vastly prefer Zebra to Serum.

Hehehe, that's cool!

It's just whenever someone sums up Serum to me I have the feeling they're saying "OMG look how great it is" when all I hear is, "hmm, yep, sounds good". Recently one of my younger employees who hasn't been familiar with Zebra did this, and each time he pointed out a feature that's great in Serum, I'm like "so...?". So we finally did an internal presentation about Zebra for the young ones, and now they're all hyped to do Z3.

We'll see... today spending another few hours on the reverb. I wonder what it would take to hire Casey or Sean to dial in a good setting if we made the architecture available to them. Or maybe they'd chuckle at the architecture... who knows.

(but then maybe we should make the architecture available to public and wait for people to send us good settings...? But that would cost so much extra time...? Decisions.. decisions...)

[Cyoon]

hm, what about all the settings wich were send in with Protoverb? Do they help in this case?

[Urs]

hm, what about all the settings wich were send in with Protoverb? Do they help in this case?

They might! What I'm currently working on is classical Lexicon-style reverbration though, as I found a way to do something pretty complex with very low CPU footprint. It is a different thing from what we did in Protoverb, but there's room for that as well