Opinions Please, Reason 9.5 or Bitwig 2.1?

[inkwarp]

... but it's kind of like FL Studio, their stock plug-ins are mediocre and 3rd party plug-ins are required to complete the package.

this simply isn't true.
but there's an example of a bigotted opinion which is wholely unjustified.

[gas pump]

... but it's kind of like FL Studio, their stock plug-ins are mediocre and 3rd party plug-ins are required to complete the package.

this simply isn't true.
but there's an example of a bigotted opinion which is wholely unjustified.

Please post a video of a professional musician with a hit song that didn't use 3rd party plug-ins?

As far as I've ever seen, they are always using 3rd party synths because most of them that come with FL Studio are demos. Also I rarely see them using stock effects plug-ins, aside from maybe the Fruity Reverb and EQ 2.

People resort to personal attacks when they have no true argument to dispute the claims. Let's get back on track and away from heated debates, thank you.

Reason's plug-ins, other then maybe their RV7000 Reverb unit, hasn't had a major improvement in nearly a decade. It would be nice if they modernized their plug-in suite instead of trying to cash in on the RE market.

I also have an issue with their pricing, it's way overpriced in the current market, especially compared to something like Bitwig, Studio One or Logic.

[fedexnman]

OP starts thread and never replies ..... hmmmmmm .... so here goes okay. buy a used Bitwig1 license , and buy a used Reason 6.5 , 7 , or 8 for the time being and learn both , find out which one you like then upgrade to BitWig2.1 or Reason9.5 and sell the other used host license .Or just keep it and be a DAW whore like the rest of us on KVR ....

[pdxindy]

Bitwig is much better for working with audio

[Anosou]

... but it's kind of like FL Studio, their stock plug-ins are mediocre and 3rd party plug-ins are required to complete the package.

this simply isn't true.
but there's an example of a bigotted opinion which is wholely unjustified.

Please post a video of a professional musician with a hit song that didn't use 3rd party plug-ins?

As far as I've ever seen, they are always using 3rd party synths because most of them that come with FL Studio are demos. Also I rarely see them using stock effects plug-ins, aside from maybe the Fruity Reverb and EQ 2.

People resort to personal attacks when they have no true argument to dispute the claims. Let's get back on track and away from heated debates, thank you.

Reason's plug-ins, other then maybe their RV7000 Reverb unit, hasn't had a major improvement in nearly a decade. It would be nice if they modernized their plug-in suite instead of trying to cash in on the RE market.

I also have an issue with their pricing, it's way overpriced in the current market, especially compared to something like Bitwig, Studio One or Logic.

This is a bit of a weird statement to me. As far as I can tell, most big-name producers—regardless of DAW—tends to add at least a handful 3rd party plug-ins. In other words, this argument would work for any DAW. I'd imagine this is especially true for Ableton Live since Live comes with Drum Rack, Impulse and Simpler only as built-in devices.

Regardles, here are a few examples of Reason-made songs with pretty much only stock devices (though I can't comment on whatever mastering has happened post-production) that've been huge hits! Stromae's Alors on Danse, Owl City's Fireflies, plenty of DJ Mustard productions. I also know Ali Payami (producer for Ariana Grande, The Weeknd, Ellie Goulding, Katy Perry) exclusively uses Reason for his productions.

[inkwarp]

Please post a video of a professional musician with a hit song that didn't use 3rd party plug-ins?

As far as I've ever seen, they are always using 3rd party synths because most of them that come with FL Studio are demos. Also I rarely see them using stock effects plug-ins, aside from maybe the Fruity Reverb and EQ 2.

People resort to personal attacks when they have no true argument to dispute the claims. Let's get back on track and away from heated debates, thank you.

how is that a personal attack? also. in response to your inane comment, i answered directly, to the quote :

... but it's kind of like FL Studio, their stock plug-ins are mediocre and 3rd party plug-ins are required to complete the package.

their plugins are NOT mediocre and , of course people use VSTi etc, but you could easily make do with FL just using it's bespoke stuff. You don not have to, but you could in principle.
Before posting make sure you know what you are talking about.
again, you do not know what you are talking about.

[gas pump]

... but it's kind of like FL Studio, their stock plug-ins are mediocre and 3rd party plug-ins are required to complete the package.

this simply isn't true.
but there's an example of a bigotted opinion which is wholely unjustified.

Please post a video of a professional musician with a hit song that didn't use 3rd party plug-ins?

As far as I've ever seen, they are always using 3rd party synths because most of them that come with FL Studio are demos. Also I rarely see them using stock effects plug-ins, aside from maybe the Fruity Reverb and EQ 2.

People resort to personal attacks when they have no true argument to dispute the claims. Let's get back on track and away from heated debates, thank you.

Reason's plug-ins, other then maybe their RV7000 Reverb unit, hasn't had a major improvement in nearly a decade. It would be nice if they modernized their plug-in suite instead of trying to cash in on the RE market.

I also have an issue with their pricing, it's way overpriced in the current market, especially compared to something like Bitwig, Studio One or Logic.

This is a bit of a weird statement to me. As far as I can tell, most big-name producers—regardless of DAW—tends to add at least a handful 3rd party plug-ins. In other words, this argument would work for any DAW. I'd imagine this is especially true for Ableton Live since Live comes with Drum Rack, Impulse and Simpler only as built-in devices.

Regardles, here are a few examples of Reason-made songs with pretty much only stock devices (though I can't comment on whatever mastering has happened post-production) that've been huge hits! Stromae's Alors on Danse, Owl City's Fireflies, plenty of DJ Mustard productions. I also know Ali Payami (producer for Ariana Grande, The Weeknd, Ellie Goulding, Katy Perry) exclusively uses Reason for his productions.

First off, thank you for your intelligent reply and opinion, even if we are in disagreement.

Well there are a lot of professional engineers that can and do use a lot of the stock plug-ins from Protools. This may be because they are receiving professionally recorded tracks that are lathered in high end gear with added saturation, harmonics, etc. So 3rd party effects are less of a requirement and more of a creative decision. It also has a lot to do with the genre of music being engineered, rock, pop, etc verses a hundred different flavors of EDM.

Electronic musicians need these tools, distortions, harmonics, saturations, exciters and all the other goodies that help take a sterile track and make it more palatable. These are the tools that are lacking from Reason and FL Studio in my opinion. This is also the reason that most of their plug-ins never make it into professionally mixed tracks. And the reason why 3rd party plug-ins are pretty much mandatory when it comes to these two DAWs.

Ableton Live and Bitwig take a different approach on their stock plug-ins and don't rely on outside sales of other plug-ins to generate revenue. Like Reason has Rack Extensions and FL Studio releases demo versions that require further payment. This also trickles down to their need, desire and willingness to update their stock catalog. Especially with modern features like M/S, Mix Knob(Parallel Processing), internal/external sidechain and tons of other features.

Bitwig is also pushing the envelope in innovation when it comes to automation, modulation and other 2017 features that are required in this day and age of so many choices.

You may not agree with my assessment but I'm sure you would be willing to respect my opinion, same goes for me. Have a great day and may your music reach your furthest dreams.

[Anosou]

Electronic musicians need these tools, distortions, harmonics, saturations, exciters and all the other goodies that help take a sterile track and make it more palatable. These are the tools that are lacking from Reason and FL Studio in my opinion. This is also the reason that most of their plug-ins never make it into professionally mixed tracks. And the reason why 3rd party plug-ins are pretty much mandatory when it comes to these two DAWs.

Ableton Live and Bitwig take a different approach on their stock plug-ins and don't rely on outside sales of other plug-ins to generate revenue. Like Reason has Rack Extensions and FL Studio releases demo versions that require further payment. This also trickles down to their need, desire and willingness to update their stock catalog. Especially with modern features like M/S, Mix Knob(Parallel Processing), internal/external sidechain and tons of other features.

Bitwig is also pushing the envelope in innovation when it comes to automation, modulation and other 2017 features that are required in this day and age of so many choices.

You may not agree with my assessment but I'm sure you would be willing to respect my opinion, same goes for me. Have a great day and may your music reach your furthest dreams.

Of course, definitely respect your opinion. Constructive civil discussions are the way to go, aren't they?

A quick note on modulation is that Reason was a pioneer in the modulate-everything-thinking with virtual CV and, later, the Combinator. Once you're used to the workflow it's very, very powerful.

And just to re-iterate, I know plenty of times that the built-in Reason devices has made it in to professionally mixed tracks. While I agree that some features (M/S for example) are not present in Reason stock devices, RV7000 and Scream4 are immensely popular and powerful effect devices and the modelled Mixer too.

Another interesting point here is that you seem to primarily be talking about effects. How many stock instruments end up in professional productions in the various DAWs? Reason's strength (on purpose) is in instruments and sounds, so I'd wager more Reason instruments end up in professional production than Ableton instruments—logical, since Ableton Live (non-Suite) doesn't come with any instruments that aren't samplers. So at least that's another facet to this discussion that a potential user should be aware of, do a comparison of instruments too.

And a final point, Ableton definitely has add-on sales and up-sell that they rely on. They sell content in the form of upgrade to Suite, Max4Live, Live Packs, Max4Live devices and so on.

[gas pump]

Of course, definitely respect your opinion. Constructive civil discussions are the way to go, aren't they?

A quick note on modulation is that Reason was a pioneer in the modulate-everything-thinking with virtual CV and, later, the Combinator. Once you're used to the workflow it's very, very powerful.

And just to re-iterate, I know plenty of times that the built-in Reason devices has made it in to professionally mixed tracks. While I agree that some features (M/S for example) are not present in Reason stock devices, RV7000 and Scream4 are immensely popular and powerful effect devices and the modelled Mixer too.

Another interesting point here is that you seem to primarily be talking about effects. How many stock instruments end up in professional productions in the various DAWs? Reason's strength (on purpose) is in instruments and sounds, so I'd wager more Reason instruments end up in professional production than Ableton instruments—logical, since Ableton Live (non-Suite) doesn't come with any instruments that aren't samplers. So at least that's another facet to this discussion that a potential user should be aware of, do a comparison of instruments too.

And a final point, Ableton definitely has add-on sales and up-sell that they rely on. They sell content in the form of upgrade to Suite, Max4Live, Live Packs, Max4Live devices and so on.

I do agree that Reason did start the virtual CV modulation craze, but it seems that the 3rd party developers have taken over that arena. Propellerheads turned their attention to the development of instruments, like the A-list series, which I find to be underwhelming and not included in upgrades. They also co-created Parsec which is probably their best release in nearly a decade, but they didn't include it in the upgrade of Reason like they did with Thor.

Bitwig has also stepped into the CV arena and they are currently developing and releasing devices included in upgrades. They also release improvements to old devices and totally new devices in their incremental updates. Ever since Rack Extensions were introduced, Propellerheads has abandoned this approach in search of added revenue streams.

It's not like you can't use the stock instruments from Reason to get some great sounds, but they haven't touched them in a decade. The samples are dated and they still don't even include Recycle editing abilities within Reason, which is odd and reinforces the outside revenue stream issue. Along with Refills taking away from new content from upgrades, something that Bitwig doesn't suffer from.

It would be very difficult to record, produce and mix a rock album in Reason with their stock instruments and effects. Because of the lack of an amp simulator, saturation, variety of distortion types, added harmonics and exciters. Scream 4 is decent, but dated and lacking a large variety of tones and colors. VSTs coming to Reason has changed things in this department and is only going to keep them from releasing stock versions.

Bitwig on the other hand will continue to develop stock plug-ins because they don't rely on selling outside their main revenue stream. The new modulation and automation systems have only made it easier and less dependent on 3rd party plug-ins. Which is only going to expand when they release their modular features. You're right about Ableton, it's more like FL Studio's pay structure, by the way they offer different level packages.

I just find Reason's and FL Studio's revenue structure in conflict with their upgrade road maps. They have to balance too many issues and in the end the customer is left paying too much for too little, in my opinion.

[saturdaysaint]

Of course, definitely respect your opinion. Constructive civil discussions are the way to go, aren't they?

Good luck having a civil discussion with a psycho who's burned through multiple user names in his deranged vendetta against a piece of software! Hey, I almost responded too; the oddly detailed history of Props business model was the tell.

[woodsdenis]

IMHO The quality of Reasons instruments and fx are very good, certainly on a par with, and are in certain instances exceeding the competition. No DAW has a Limiter as good as Ozone/DMG/Slate or comps eq like Fabfilter etc but all in all the stock Reason sounds are good. I do come to Reason 9.5 from 3 so I don't have any baggage from the past 10 years or so as a user. The Alligator, Scream and the other dist unit are great and very usable. The R9 combinator sounds are mostly good and some excellent.

Is it perfect, certainly not, but a great creative tool that maybe will be the only thing you need. Maybe being the operative word here, criticism of DAWs can only be viewed from your own perspective and to assume everybody else is on the same criteria as you is misguided, and arrogant when you can't see the others point of view.

One thing I will say about Reason is it hasn't crashed once in the 10 days or so I have been using it .

[xbitz]

Mikko's free trance template quite good example IMO what level can be accomplished with Reason

+ AntiDote and Synchronous in melody driven EDM

Synchronous is a must have one otherwise all the modulation related task will be huge PITA

[pdxindy]

IMHO The quality of Reasons instruments and fx are very good, certainly on a par with, and are in certain instances exceeding the competition. No DAW has a Limiter as good as Ozone/DMG/Slate or comps eq like Fabfilter etc but all in all the stock Reason sounds are good. I do come to Reason 9.5 from 3 so I don't have any baggage from the past 10 years or so as a user. The Alligator, Scream and the other dist unit are great and very usable. The R9 combinator sounds are mostly good and some excellent.

Is it perfect, certainly not, but a great creative tool that maybe will be the only thing you need. Maybe being the operative word here, criticism of DAWs can only be viewed from your own perspective and to assume everybody else is on the same criteria as you is misguided, and arrogant when you can't see the others point of view.

One thing I will say about Reason is it hasn't crashed once in the 10 days or so I have been using it .

Reason is a fine creative tool... it is in the overall concept and workflow where I like Bitwig or Logic considerably more than Reason. Reason just isn't what I want. Reason is not bad just because it is not for me... so yes, it is all pretty subjective and every DAW these days is really capable.

[inkwarp]

Reason as a rewire instrument is still a very good thing and worth hanging on to my old copy : ) As far as i know Bitwig does not support rewire?
if it did that would be a potent mix...

[woodsdenis]

IMHO The quality of Reasons instruments and fx are very good, certainly on a par with, and are in certain instances exceeding the competition. No DAW has a Limiter as good as Ozone/DMG/Slate or comps eq like Fabfilter etc but all in all the stock Reason sounds are good. I do come to Reason 9.5 from 3 so I don't have any baggage from the past 10 years or so as a user. The Alligator, Scream and the other dist unit are great and very usable. The R9 combinator sounds are mostly good and some excellent.

Is it perfect, certainly not, but a great creative tool that maybe will be the only thing you need. Maybe being the operative word here, criticism of DAWs can only be viewed from your own perspective and to assume everybody else is on the same criteria as you is misguided, and arrogant when you can't see the others point of view.

One thing I will say about Reason is it hasn't crashed once in the 10 days or so I have been using it .

Reason is a fine creative tool... it is in the overall concept and workflow where I like Bitwig or Logic considerably more than Reason. Reason just isn't what I want. Reason is not bad just because it is not for me... so yes, it is all pretty subjective and every DAW these days is really capable.

I love Bitwig too, very creative and suits my brain, Logic never did it fro me IDK, all IMHO opinion of course. If there was a perfect DAW there would no KVR