TDR Limiter 6 GE - Released!

[Dean Aka Nekro]

It is absolutely killer and another master piece from TDR, You guys knock it out of the park everytime

All the best Fabien, Vlad, Other members of the team and to all as always

Dean

[Compyfox]

A lot of misinformation yet again....

Barricade 4 does a pretty good job at True Peak limiting but it does let the odd few through, usually very short high percussive sounds. L6GE seems to do a better job if you use the limiter module in brickwall mode (not multiband) in the last place before the output limiter. Still though it lets a few ISPs through. It seems to me that the only way to really ensure true peak limiting in any case is to set the output threshold down by maybe 0.2dB or so.

And this is why you should NOT use -0.2dBFS.


ISP can reach higher than 1dB in worst case scenarios, but usually we talk within 1dB. There is a reason why ISP limiting is recommened to do with -1dBTP as headroom bar minimum. Even BEFORE the ITU-R measurement craze kicked in.

And the higher the loudness you target at, the more important this setting is getting. I still have old CD players here at my workspace that start to barf if a signal goes higher than -0,5dBFS.

Personally i try not to get too concerned by the odd one here and there. As someone else posted in another thread, plenty of classic albums have been released without true peak limiting and they sound fine.

Sure, because this material usually isn't squashed to sh*t, but uses a reasonable loudness.

My knowledge of this is very limited, but as far as i'm aware the standards for TV is based around EBU-R -18 (?) with an integrated loudness at around 0 (-18LUFS). With your restrictions, that still gives a headroom of 15dB for peaks, surely it's not a problem to pull down the output limiter an extra dB just to be sure. Please, by all means correct me on this if i'm completely misunderstanding it.

No!
The specs of EBU R-128 are Integrated Loudness (ILk in short) of -23LUFS, maximum True Peak of -1dBTP.
USA with ATSC A/85 goes for ILk of -24LUFS and maximum True Peak of -1dBTP or even -2dBTP

Streaming services currently aim for -16LUFS.

The French Radio Broadcast Union does shoot (to my knowledge) for -23LUFS ILk and -2dBTP. At least this is what I've understood at AES#142 (Berlin) (the panels were long!).

I've only tried L6GE briefly but the loudest ISP spike I've detected using the limiter module last in brickwall mode with output set to -0.1dB (extreme mode) was a single incident (in a 50 minute album) of +0.1dB, at a particularly loud and dense part, so i'd say it does a pretty decent job really (I'm using Youlean for analysis, i don't know how reliable it is).

Youlean Loudness Meter is reliable. Though each True Peak meter out there does "their own thing" - so keep that in mind.


The devil is in the details still. It depends on the loudness on the input, how many modules you used with this Limiter (heck, even the free version!). A ceiling of -0,1dB is just too low!

BTW: Limiter No6 (Free) vs Limiter No6 GE

I did a stress test with a signal that hit -3,5dB RMS (forte fortissimo passages, on purpose!) and I limited the signal to a ceiling of -1,1dBTP (on purpose - so that I'm save until -1dBTP). The freeware version had a readout of -1,01dBTP in the end, the GE version of 1,1dBTP.

Hmm are you saying that Lim6 is letting IS peaks through, if you engage lookahead in the peak limiter? And if that fails (?) then then "true peak" option in the output section? sounds like a bug to me if that's actually what's happening.

If you engage ISP Fast or Precise with the old freeware, or True Peak in the Output Module of the GE version, and set a reasonable(!) ceiling, then the ISP limiting offset (depending on the incoming "loudness") is about 0,1dB.

Having the Peak Limiter or Clipper prior to the Output Module, eases up on the workload of the TruePeak Limiter safety net.

[MogwaiBoy]

Depends if it's hard or soft clipping. If the clipper is a soft (saturation) one then it curves off the top of the waveform before hitting the ceiling, vastly reducing the possibility of ISPs - but it changes the sound too (dirtier more distorted).. but you can really push RMS levels with it. Clipping is essential for modern "EDM" loudness that's for sure.

[mutantdog]

A lot of misinformation yet again....

I'm not sure that reporting my own personal observations qualifies as "misinformation" but whatever, i'll take the bait.

It seems to me that the only way to really ensure true peak limiting in any case is to set the output threshold down by maybe 0.2dB or so.

And this is why you should NOT use -0.2dBFS.

Clearly a statement of personal opinion from me, note the lack of certainty i express at the end, suggesting that you may wish to be cautious than I.

ISP can reach higher than 1dB in worst case scenarios, but usually we talk within 1dB. There is a reason why ISP limiting is recommened to do with -1dBTP as headroom bar minimum. Even BEFORE the ITU-R measurement craze kicked in.

Meanwhile the loudness war still rages on and some of us are looking for a reasonable compromise between preserving dynamics and excessive limiting.

Personally i try not to get too concerned by the odd one here and there. As someone else posted in another thread, plenty of classic albums have been released without true peak limiting and they sound fine.

Sure, because this material usually isn't squashed to sh*t, but uses a reasonable loudness.

Which is exactly why i don't mind the odd one here and there, I'm more concerned with the overall picture as it were. (Besides, there are good albums that have been squashed to shit too, doesn't mean they ain't still good)

Please, by all means correct me on this if i'm completely misunderstanding it.

No!
The specs of EBU R-128 are Integrated Loudness (ILk in short) of -23LUFS, maximum True Peak of -1dBTP.
USA with ATSC A/85 goes for ILk of -24LUFS and maximum True Peak of -1dBTP or even -2dBTP

Streaming services currently aim for -16LUFS.

The French Radio Broadcast Union does shoot (to my knowledge) for -23LUFS ILk and -2dBTP. At least this is what I've understood at AES#142 (Berlin) (the panels were long!).

Thank you for this clarification.

The devil is in the details still. It depends on the loudness on the input, how many modules you used with this Limiter (heck, even the free version!). A ceiling of -0,1dB is just too low!

Hey, like i said it was a quick test run through. I haven't even bought it yet, i'm just exploring the demo. But given that -0.1dB ceiling apparently only caused one true peak spike above 0dB i'd say it was a pretty good choice for that particular occasion. That may not always be the case though, indeed rendering it with dithering may be a factor that requires reassessment.

Dude, i appreciate your input and am happy to be corrected when necessary but differing opinion and presenting of observations does not equal misinformation.

[Compyfox]

The discussion dragged on about what is correct (or considered to be correct) and what not - I couldn't sit still.


I don't remember who started this -0,1dBFS nonsense back in the days (just because you "could", and you're technically "save from clipping" - if in reality you're not), but I can not agree on that route. So many albums that still clip - albeit unnoticeable unless you have a really old CD player that starts to get hiccups due to this. -0,5dBFS even at -8dB RMS avg should be bar minimum IMO. YMMV.

Additional to that the topic "Lossy Compression" - the lower the bitrate, the higher the ceiling needs to be. Doesn't matter if it's the now considered "bad MP3" (which is nonsense!), or the currently recommended AAC CODEC. The CODEC should not be addressed higher than -8dB RMS avg anyway. Which brings us back to the ITU-R specs and why streaming services (incl. Youtube, Spotify, iTunes, etc) aim for -16LUFS to -13LUFS these days. That is more reminiscent of albums form mid 90ies.

Doesn't mean you can't abuse Limiter No6 if you really need to. Like I said, I did a push to -3,5dB RMS on purpose. With the right settings it remained clipping free and I could not only make it BS insane loud, but also good sounding still. It's not advised to do so however.



With that said - I'm back to lurking.

[plexuss]

With that said - I'm back to lurking.

Lurk away!

I master to -16 LUFS and am always being told how low volume my tracks are. too bad. It gives the best fidelity. I will adjust, usually a couple dB louder if the track warrants it. I also find -16 LUFS creates less ISPs in lossy formats.

Speaking of which, one thing all limiter solutions are missing so far as I can tell is a meter for counting ISPs in numerous formats. The only tool that does this is Apple's free RoundtripAU tool. It will warn and count clips and ISPs on the source format and another user selected format which includes 128k lossy streams. The reason the count is important is because it gives you a sense of how bad the track is going to sound - a simple indicator of a clip or ISP indicates if 1 happened or 10,000. but clearly a track that liberates 1 ISP is not as much as problem as one that generates more.

Nugen's MasterCheck comes close but they missed the boat on the counting.

I'd by any limiter solution in an instant if it included a clip and ISP count across at least 2 different formats and ideall a graphical display over time of when these occured. *This* would be a highly useful tool, if it ever came into existance.

[FabienTDR]

TDR Limiter 6 GE updated to version 1.0.1



This maintenance update includes several performance optimizations, new unlinked options to the Compressor and Peak Limiter modules (Alt + click the LR button on top of these module), and a 16bit dither option.

TDR Limiter 6 GE | Tokyo Dawn Records

License holders find updated installers in their accounts.

[3ee]

^ great!
Awesome, shouldn't be long until I get this puppy!

I already have great tools (incl one of the best limiters on today's market) ... but this plug, I really like!
has a different 'smooth' character overall when pushed.... also, really like the compressor in the 2nd and 3rd modes.

[FabienTDR]

Official tutorial video now available!



http://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-limiter6-ge/

[zvenx]

Official tutorial video now available!



http://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-limiter6-ge/

Thanks for this. As Always Dan explains things really well.

rsp

[ilmai]

Official tutorial video now available!



http://www.tokyodawn.net/tdr-limiter6-ge/

Awesome as always, this would have made me buy the plugin if I didn't already own it.

[3ee]

as expected, great video presentation!
...also, some pretty cool tunes

[.jon]

Worrall is such a brilliant presenter, subject matter and delivery really world class. Even I've tried the demo, I didn't realize how deep and powerful this plugin is before watching the video. I'm very happy with my current limiter, but this is quite a bit more tool in one well designed package.

[Tp3]

Even I've tried the demo, I didn't realize how deep and powerful this plugin is before watching the video

+1

[zvenx]

I didn't realise there was a demo.
thanks
rsp