Tool doesn't go to -inf dB?!?

[antic604]

Oh I get it that Bitwig was heavily influenced by Ableton's Live, what with some of the ex-employees of the latter working there, but this is beyond ridiculous!

Why would anyone think copying THAT *functionality* makes sense? How is this a "tool", where if I wan't to actually automate the track's output level and silence it track completely I need to use a Layer container to do that?!

Is there any rationale behind this at all?

[Tearing Riots]

/double

[Tearing Riots]

Yes, it is about scaling. Most controls that go to -inf are not linear at all.
If needed i just use the wet/dry of an empty fx rack.

Why would anyone think copying THAT *functionality* makes sense?

You don't modulate much, do you?

[antic604]

Yes, it is about scaling. Most controls that go to -inf are not linear at all.
If needed i just use the wet/dry of an empty fx rack.

Why would anyone think copying THAT *functionality* makes sense?

You don't modulate much, do you?

Well, if it's not linear you can always compensate for that with the automation curve's slope right? It going down to only -30-something dB makes it pretty useless for many (most) cases, because it's still very much audible.

I don't know what it has to do whether I "modulate much" or not?

[larsomat]

There's another Bitwig device which goes down to -inf.

Not at home right now, so I can't check which one it is.

[antic604]

There's another Bitwig device which goes down to -inf.

Not at home right now, so I can't check which one it is.

I know, I mentioned that in the OP - it's either of the Layer containers. But they're not meant for this and I don't get the rationale for Tool not going down to -Inf dB. Maybe they should add a switch: linear (which goes to -30something dB) and non-linear (which goes to -Inf dB).

[Tearing Riots]

Yes, it is about scaling. Most controls that go to -inf are not linear at all.
If needed i just use the wet/dry of an empty fx rack.

Why would anyone think copying THAT *functionality* makes sense?

You don't modulate much, do you?

Well, if it's not linear you can always compensate for that with the automation curve's slope right? It going down to only -30-something dB makes it pretty useless for many (most) cases, because it's still very much audible.

I don't know what it has to do whether I "modulate much" or not?

A volume fader doesn't act consistently through the whole way. If you modulate it evenly it won't behave the same way up as down.

For example, what i like to do is chains like this:

Screenshot 2017-09-19 18.20.19.png

Compensating gain changes is much easier with the tool.

[antic604]

A volume fader doesn't act consistently through the whole way. If you modulate it evenly it won't behave the same way up as down.

For example, what i like to do is chains like this:



Compensating gain changes is much easier with the tool.

And you think this is an acceptable solution, for something that should've and easily could've been addressed with one knob? What's next? A dedicated device to track pitch of incoming MIDI notes to key-track instrument pitch?

Ok, I rest my case

[dangayle]

I agree. It's the easiest of fixes.

[stamp]

What's next?

Good manners?

[antic604]

What's next?

Good manners?

What's wrong with my manners?

[Hez]

A volume fader doesn't act consistently through the whole way. If you modulate it evenly it won't behave the same way up as down.

For example, what i like to do is chains like this:



Compensating gain changes is much easier with the tool.

And you think this is an acceptable solution, for something that should've and easily could've been addressed with one knob? What's next? A dedicated device to track pitch of incoming MIDI notes to key-track instrument pitch?

Ok, I rest my case

I think you misunderstood Tearing Riots' post - they were saying that you couldn't achieve a linear pre/post gain chain like the above with a volume control that goes down to - inf dB.

A simple solution IMO would be to add a second volume control to the tool device which goes from unity to -inf dB. That way the existing volume knob would be used for trimming/linear gain fine tuning in either direction, and the second knob for fully muting/cutting signals.

[antic604]

I think you misunderstood Tearing Riots' post - they were saying that you couldn't achieve a linear pre/post gain chain like the above with a volume control that goes down to - inf dB.

A simple solution IMO would be to add a second volume control to the tool device which goes from unity to -inf dB. That way the existing volume knob would be used for trimming/linear gain fine tuning in either direction, and the second knob for fully muting/cutting signals.

No, I understood him just fine - I even suggested few posts back that if devs wanted it, they could add a switch to change the mode in which the knob operates (linear / non-linear). Second knob could be a good solution as well.

[Tearing Riots]

And you think this is an acceptable solution, for something that should've and easily could've been addressed with one knob?

I think we're talking past each other here, do you propose a 'drive' setup with a single knob as a bitwig feature?

The tool's amplitude knob is a gain adjust. Just like the gain knob on a mixing desk. Use it for gainstaging. If it had a bigger range it would be harder to use.

A volume fader is scaled more like human hearing. I think the fx layers volume slider is indeed meant for that. It even shows up in the mixer.

If you still insist that it's all wrong you could roll your own, even switching exp/lin/log behavior using the upcoming polynomial modulator.

Hope that helps

[Hez]

I think you misunderstood Tearing Riots' post - they were saying that you couldn't achieve a linear pre/post gain chain like the above with a volume control that goes down to - inf dB.

A simple solution IMO would be to add a second volume control to the tool device which goes from unity to -inf dB. That way the existing volume knob would be used for trimming/linear gain fine tuning in either direction, and the second knob for fully muting/cutting signals.

No, I understood him just fine - I even suggested few posts back that if devs wanted it, they could add a switch to change the mode in which the knob operates (linear / non-linear). Second knob could be a good solution as well.

I'm not sure you did, as you suggested that their chain was somehow an inelegant workaround when it's not, it is the simplest and most correct way to achieve what it was intended to do.

I don't think it's possible to have a knob that linearly goes to -inf dB, that wouldn't make any sense. Would it go to +inf dB the other side? There's a reason for the distinction between gain/trim knobs and actual volume faders as they have quite different use cases.

I agree that there should be a device which has the clear and obvious purpose of fading a signal from unity gain to silence, but the tool volume is knob is clearly not intended to be that device.