Ableton LIVE 10 ... Officially Announced. (plus: Buy LIVE 9 now with 20% discount, get LIVE 10 free)

[Guenon]

Exciting news . Here's to hoping they have overhauled the Live browser indexing system, and give more user control over the indexing process. Some other stuff I'm hoping for is still more mature MIDI editing, with visibility settings and such for more convenient editing of MIDI events residing on multiple tracks.

[SLiC]

Regarding the 'insane de facto subscription business model' of BWS, I really don't think you can call it subscription when you own the licence 'for ever' and can continue to use it without paying subscription. Its really just a standard 'V2' paid upgrade with years free updates, and we have had some great free updates with 2.1 and 2.2 plus there have still be small updates/bug fixes to the old V1 version so I don't think anyone needs to be overlay concerned about this.

I don't give a shit what you think, you drank the kool aid and that's fine. Go ahead and bump the relevant BitWig Studio 2 thread here in the hosts forum if you want to re-discuss it further. And try and wrap your head around the meaning of 'de facto' while you're at it, and what that might imply.


suffice to say: I don't like the model, and it's keeping me (and others) from purchasing. Wring your hands about the wording all you like, but take it to the BitWig Studio 2 thread. K ? k !

How about 'de facto hypocrite', as you are the person that brought up Bitwig on a Live 10 thread. Its good that you have now decided that no one else can discuss Bitwig after you on this thread as only your view on Bitwig counts, so clears things up, thanks.

[gesslr]

BWS’s model is no different from Steiny’s, Ableton’s, Presonus’s business model. Major annual point updates are paid, smaller incremental updates are not. (Except for Steinberg which typical charges for its X.5 updates too, the bastards.) Your old BWS software does not stop working if you don’t pay up, its yours to use forever.

If someone can show me some meaningful way the models differ, I’d be much obliged.

[e@rs]

There are no paid 'annual point updates' at Ableton and PreSonus.

[SLiC]

Agreed. I am also a S13 user and they have very generous free updates; but I expect top pay for major updates or periodically, software companies need to make money! I, like I suspect many others, wont necessarily upgrade BWS annually (we don't have to, its an option) but will wait until there is a big new feature or a collection of smaller features that I think justify the 150E upgrade (and from that time |I will also get the next year of upgrades free). Its a bit complicated, and personably I would have preferred to pay for the V3 upgrade (if I want it) as I do with S1 etc, but its not so bad its a deal breaker (for me).

The real issue for Live now is that BWS exists and has got a lot better over that last 2 years. I will admit to being a 'reluctant' BWS user at first as I had been with Live for a long time and had a lot of packs and knowledge about how to use it. If Live had come back with V10 1 year ago addressing the features that are important to me (that I voted on at the Live site) then I way well have switched back and not upgraded to BWS V2.

Now however my feet are pretty firmly under the table, I am not sure if I could go back 100% (I cant see Live 10 having CV for example) but I hope they do something different enough for me to justify keeping both. The fact that BWS offers so many of the bread and butter things that Live users have been asking for is going to make this a difficult update for Live, they don't want to be seen to be playing 'catch up' (but they need to in some areas) and they really need some big 'killer' feature that makes Live unique again; personally I suspect that may be more hardware....either way, I am really interested to see what they do and I hope its great.

[DJ Warmonger]

One Ableton trainer teased us some feature half a year before it actually came out. No hurry, whatsover.

Surely Live 10 will come out someday. I'm good with what it is now, and teh only feature I need is multicore rendering

[pdxindy]

Regarding the 'insane de facto subscription business model' of BWS, I really don't think you can call it subscription when you own the licence 'for ever' and can continue to use it without paying subscription. Its really just a standard 'V2' paid upgrade with years free updates, and we have had some great free updates with 2.1 and 2.2 plus there have still be small updates/bug fixes to the old V1 version so I don't think anyone needs to be overlay concerned about this.

I don't give a shit what you think

which means you are more interested in promoting lies... BWS is NOT a subscription. period.

[pdxindy]

The real issue for Live now is that BWS exists and has got a lot better over that last 2 years. I will admit to being a 'reluctant' BWS user at first as I had been with Live for a long time and had a lot of packs and knowledge about how to use it. If Live had come back with V10 1 year ago addressing the features that are important to me (that I voted on at the Live site) then I way well have switched back and not upgraded to BWS V2.

Now however my feet are pretty firmly under the table, I am not sure if I could go back 100% (I cant see Live 10 having CV for example) but I hope they do something different enough for me to justify keeping both. The fact that BWS offers so many of the bread and butter things that Live users have been asking for is going to make this a difficult update for Live, they don't want to be seen to be playing 'catch up' (but they need to in some areas) and they really need some big 'killer' feature that makes Live unique again; personally I suspect that may be more hardware....either way, I am really interested to see what they do and I hope its great.

Live also has stuff that Bitwig is missing too.

I also still have my Live 9 Studio license but it has been 2+ years since I used Live. For a long time I figured I would update to Live 10 whenever it came out. But once I purchased the Linnstrument and got into MPE stuff, Live is just out. There is nothing Ableton could add in Live 10 that would entice me unless it includes full MPE support.

[headquest]

I’m in a different position to many here I guess … but what I will need from Live 10 to justify upgrading comes under the heading “something you never knew you needed, but now couldn’t live without”.

Meantime, I’ve not tried BWS, basically because … well, as I said my needs are probably different to most here. I use music software to knock up demos of piano pieces to send for commercial publishing, and to record the students I teach piano. Also I use it for home music creation for my own pleasure (and to share on SoundCloud). I don’t use software live at present, nor do I produce full on studio recordings of bands, etc.

Back in the day, I used Live and Reason side by side, the former just audio (I started out on version 2) and the latter for MIDI fun (again, @ version 2). Over time I gradually stopped using Reason and have just been using Live. One of the main causes of that is that Pianoteq VST is an essential instrument for every project.

Then … Reason 9.5. Oh boy. Pianoteq inside Reason. And now R10 on the horizon too… and I find myself actually moving away from Live and just using Reason at the moment. A phase, some novelty, etc, and I’m sure I’ll still find a need and a use for Live 9. Whether I could justify upgrading to 10 (at least while 9 still works find on my system) … time will tell. But definitely it will need something quite compelling, and right now I can’t think of anything.

[antic604]

I'm eagerly awaiting the announcement, whenever it may be.

As some of the others in the thread, meanwhile I've migrated to Bitwig Studio 2. To come back to Live, this is the minimum I'd want to see of what Bitwig has and is lacking in Live:
- grouping of groups, including in-group return tracks;
- hybrid tracks, for MIDI and audio living side by side;
- flexible audio and MIDI routing *devices*;
- easier sidechaining for supporting plugins (creating dedicated tracks is a mess);
- native modulation sources (LFO, ADSR envelope, step 'sequencer');
- list of devices on a track in mixer (yes, I know about the options.txt trick);
- layered editing for MIDI or audio (streamlined comping),
- VST3 support and plugin sandboxing;
- proper mixer in Arrangement view, like the one in Session;
- zooming in Arrangement with mouse wheel / trackpad gestures;
- a full screen mode, where menu is still visible - it's infuriating going back and forth when you need something from the menu;
- support for high DPI screens for hi-resolution laptops on Win10 - this has been an issue for ages, and to make it worse it's somehow been fixed for OSX' "retina" displays, but not for Windows. Currently, you can either have a pin sharp Live's UI and tiny plugins:



or blurry UI and usable size plugins:



(click the pictures for full screen, imagine that on a 12'' screen of Surface Pro and compare)

A huge feature for me, that would overshadow some of the shortcomings above and is missing from Bitwig, would be introduction of alias/ghost clips. I still can't understand how come they're implemented in Cubase, Studio One or Reaper, while Live - the de facto default DAW for electronic, repetitive music - is lacking this?! (yes, I know about the Max4Live device, but it needs separate instance for every alias clips group)

-------------------------------------------

Frankly, I don't think Live 10 will address (most of) those issues as I feel they'll go further down the Push & Session road, because that's where the money and all the trendy users are. I treat Session view as a notepad where I just collect and try ideas, but as soon as I get things going I copy them to Arrangement and work there almost exclusively.

Fingers crossed!

[keel]

Hopefully we finally see automation snap to grid ffs. Better zooming too.

[antic604]

Hopefully we finally see automation snap to grid ffs. Better zooming too.

Oh, forgot about those! It's indeed unthinkable that in 2017 one can't zoom in/out using a mouse wheel or gestures on a trackpad. Obviously it works in OSX, but not in Windows! Kinda shows where their priorities are - a 'hip' crowd of Apple-owning beat makers

[lachrimae]

blurry UI

Try disabling System Scaling by changing it to Application (then restart Live):


If you don't do this, Windows will scale the object (assuming you're using Windows scaling other than 100%) and then Live will look blurry when Ableton scales the already zoomed application. Allowing Live to do all scaling will preserve the original vector graphics.

Same is true for many other apps...

[antic604]

Try disabling System Scaling by changing it to Application (then restart Live)

Yes, I know about it - that's the difference between my two screenshots. I know how to get sharp UI in Live, but as a trade-off you get very small plugins

[gesslr]

I'm eagerly awaiting the announcement, whenever it may be.

As some of the others in the thread, meanwhile I've migrated to Bitwig Studio 2. To come back to Live, this is the minimum I'd want to see of what Bitwig has and is lacking in Live:
- grouping of groups, including in-group return tracks;
- hybrid tracks, for MIDI and audio living side by side;
- flexible audio and MIDI routing *devices*;
- easier sidechaining for supporting plugins (creating dedicated tracks is a mess);
- native modulation sources (LFO, ADSR envelope, step 'sequencer');
- list of devices on a track in mixer (yes, I know about the options.txt trick);
- layered editing for MIDI or audio (streamlined comping),
- VST3 support and plugin sandboxing;
- proper mixer in Arrangement view, like the one in Session;
- zooming in Arrangement with mouse wheel / trackpad gestures;
- a full screen mode, where menu is still visible - it's infuriating going back and forth when you need something from the menu;
- support for high DPI screens for hi-resolution laptops on Win10 - this has been an issue for ages, and to make it worse it's somehow been fixed for OSX' "retina" displays, but not for Windows. Currently, you can either have a pin sharp Live's UI and tiny plugins:

>SNIP<

A huge feature for me, that would overshadow some of the shortcomings above and is missing from Bitwig, would be introduction of alias/ghost clips. I still can't understand how come they're implemented in Cubase, Studio One or Reaper, while Live - the de facto default DAW for electronic, repetitive music - is lacking this?! (yes, I know about the Max4Live device, but it needs separate instance for every alias clips group)

That's a damn good list.

I've pretty much stopped using Live. It was buggy as hell for a while and out of frustration (and interest) I tried BWS. BWS has a lot to like about it...it's modulation scheme just blows me away (compared to any DAW).

The thing that keeps Live on a tether with me is my investment in content. I have a metric ton of M4L instruments and add-ons and some of them are just fantastic. I wish I could run them in other DAWs without having to mess with running LIVE and rewire. I'm willing to make another investment in LIVE 10 to stay current IF there is a move to address some of the long standing FRs that are out there that help LIVE function as a more comprehensive DAW and composition tool.

However, I'm not sure that is going to happen as Ableton may have decided that it's target market is the live-performance one. Daniel James had an interesting video on why he switched to Cubase. () In it, he goes through the scoring oriented features that Cubase has in abundance compared to Live, etc. Makes sense; His main thing is film and game scores and Cubase is set up for that type of thing and Live really is not. But he made a comment during the video that caught my attention. At 5:45 he said something to the effect that when he was talking with Ableton and asking about some of the features he wanted, they told him that their emphasis was on the performer/DJ and hardware integration. If true, that would mean that the types of improvements and new features we are likely to see will be focused in those areas and that has implications if your needs are different from that demographic.

This isn't a criticism. If that's their focus, god bless 'em and good luck. But it might mean that Live as a tool may be less relevant if you aren't in that group.