Ableton LIVE 10 ... Officially Announced. (plus: Buy LIVE 9 now with 20% discount, get LIVE 10 free)

[headquest]

At 5:45 he said something to the effect that when he was talking with Ableton and asking about some of the features he wanted, they told him that their emphasis was on the performer/DJ and hardware integration. If true, that would mean that the types of improvements and new features we are likely to see will be focused in those areas and that has implications if your needs are different from that demographic.

This isn't a criticism. If that's their focus, god bless 'em and good luck. But it might mean that Live as a tool may be less relevant if you aren't in that group.

That’s always been their focus. Seriously. Having used Live since v2, followed all that they’ve done in the meantime, beta tested etc etc … they’ve always been consistent in saying that Live is first and foremost about performance.

And the other DAW features were always added just so that the performer could stay in Live when composing rather than having to switch elsewhere to finish their track.

[gesslr]

[quote="gesslr”] At 5:45 he said something to the effect that when he was talking with Ableton and asking about some of the features he wanted, they told him that their emphasis was on the performer/DJ and hardware integration. If true, that would mean that the types of improvements and new features we are likely to see will be focused in those areas and that has implications if your needs are different from that demographic.

This isn't a criticism. If that's their focus, god bless 'em and good luck. But it might mean that Live as a tool may be less relevant if you aren't in that group.

That’s always been there focus. Seriously. Having used Live since v2, followed all that they’ve done in the meantime, beta tested etc etc … they’ve always been consistent in saying that Live is first and foremost about performance.

And the other DAW features were always added just so that the performer could stay in Live when composing rather than having to switch elsewhere to finish their track.[/quote][/quote]

Great point.

[antic604]

That’s always been their focus. Seriously. Having used Live since v2, followed all that they’ve done in the meantime, beta tested etc etc … they’ve always been consistent in saying that Live is first and foremost about performance.

And the other DAW features were always added just so that the performer could stay in Live when composing rather than having to switch elsewhere to finish their track.

Very true. It's called "Live" for a reason, while Bitwig has a "Studio" in its name.

[Guenon]

But he made a comment during the video that caught my attention. At 5:45 he said something to the effect that when he was talking with Ableton and asking about some of the features he wanted, they told him that their emphasis was on the performer/DJ and hardware integration. If true, that would mean that the types of improvements and new features we are likely to see will be focused in those areas and that has implications if your needs are different from that demographic.

Ah. This directly addresses most of the things that are at the top of my wish list for Live as well, like the more robust MIDI editing capabilities. Oh well, it might well be that things like that are perpetually out of their focus. Hummh. I've been using Live for certain kind of stuff since Live 4 (it's great for a lot of things, also for creative sound design in non-musical audio commissions, and many sorts of live event / installation audio), but for many years I've done my "more traditional" composing and producing elsewhere. Probably won't change with Live 10 either. Even these days I'm using Live 8 more than Live 9, as that one is solid as a rock and won't randomly screw things up with indexing that the user can't control.

[.jon]

I haven't thought about it before, but it seems rational that the live spirit of Live is why I like it so much. I don't enjoy tinkering with software, I make better music when I simply play. Part after part, and rearrange/experiment/edit when the flow is over. All DAWs can do this, yes, but with Live it's just to natural the program itself completely fades away and lets me focus on what is really important.

I might even upgrade to Standard from Lite when 10 arrives, I don't need any of the features but would be cool to support the project.

[damoog]

but with Live it's just to natural the program itself completely fades away and lets me focus on what is really important.

thats a great way to explain Ableton live,i have been using it since V4(now 9) and it is kind of my musical brain...ive tried every damn DAW going and nothing beats live for making music for me

[Daags]

I'm eagerly awaiting the announcement, whenever it may be.

As some of the others in the thread, meanwhile I've migrated to Bitwig Studio 2. To come back to Live, this is the minimum I'd want to see of what Bitwig has and is lacking in Live:
- grouping of groups, including in-group return tracks;
- hybrid tracks, for MIDI and audio living side by side;
- flexible audio and MIDI routing *devices*;
- easier sidechaining for supporting plugins (creating dedicated tracks is a mess);
- native modulation sources (LFO, ADSR envelope, step 'sequencer');
- list of devices on a track in mixer (yes, I know about the options.txt trick);
- layered editing for MIDI or audio (streamlined comping),
- VST3 support and plugin sandboxing;
- proper mixer in Arrangement view, like the one in Session;
- zooming in Arrangement with mouse wheel / trackpad gestures;
- a full screen mode, where menu is still visible - it's infuriating going back and forth when you need something from the menu;
- support for high DPI screens for hi-resolution laptops on Win10 - this has been an issue for ages, and to make it worse it's somehow been fixed for OSX' "retina" displays, but not for Windows. Currently, you can either have a pin sharp Live's UI and tiny plugins:

>SNIP<

A huge feature for me, that would overshadow some of the shortcomings above and is missing from Bitwig, would be introduction of alias/ghost clips. I still can't understand how come they're implemented in Cubase, Studio One or Reaper, while Live - the de facto default DAW for electronic, repetitive music - is lacking this?! (yes, I know about the Max4Live device, but it needs separate instance for every alias clips group)

That's a damn good list.

+1, great list.

I'd also like to see Ableton license the latest, highest quality Zynaptiq timestretch/pitch-shift algos ... or even something left-field like iZotope's algos, if they're out-performing Zynaptiq anyway. If there are concerns about licensing fees raising the base price, maybe allow the end-user to optionally buy a license from these 3rd parties to unlock/install the algos.

sandboxing is important too. people mentioned earlier in the thread, 3rd hand information about Ableton suggesting their real modus operandi is performer/dj orientated (+ associated hardware) ... If this is really true, like if this is the real crux of their development .... I don't see how implementing sandboxing wouldn't be a crucial priority. I guess it's not just non-trivial, but maybe impossible without that major re-write that is sometimes mentioned throughout the years.

[Guenon]

I don't see how implementing sandboxing wouldn't be a crucial priority. I guess it's not just non-trivial, but maybe impossible without that major re-write that is sometimes mentioned throughout the years.

Yeah, it's been mentioned on and off for years... Wouldn't THAT be something, though, if version 10 actually was that rewrite

It's unlikely, but what a tantalizing thought.

[Harry_HH]

[quote="gesslr”] At 5:45 he said something to the effect that when he was talking with Ableton and asking about some of the features he wanted, they told him that their emphasis was on the performer/DJ and hardware integration. If true, that would mean that the types of improvements and new features we are likely to see will be focused in those areas and that has implications if your needs are different from that demographic.

This isn't a criticism. If that's their focus, god bless 'em and good luck. But it might mean that Live as a tool may be less relevant if you aren't in that group.

That’s always been there focus. Seriously. Having used Live since v2, followed all that they’ve done in the meantime, beta tested etc etc … they’ve always been consistent in saying that Live is first and foremost about performance.

And the other DAW features were always added just so that the performer could stay in Live when composing rather than having to switch elsewhere to finish their track.

[/quote]

Great point.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I don't agree. Well, the points above we are all aware. However, neglecting totally the fact that 85 % of the use of the Live happens in project studios, not in live performances, and not to make improvements in arrangement/composing/Midi features, is pure stupidity.

[lnikj]

I actually dread it coming out. If it was going to fix my number one issue with it, its broken multi channel midi routing, then I would be happy but I doubt it will. My number two issue is the inability to save per device/plugin controller assignments (which makes Lemur too painful to use when it has to be mapped every time) but I'd lay money that that won't be fixed either.

I have a massive investment in M4L devices, which I love, and my fear is that when it drops I will be forced to upgrade at some silly price ($150 or so) just to either keep my current ones working or to add yet to be released devices that will only be version 10 compatible.

[antic604]

I don't agree. Well, the points above we are all aware. However, neglecting totally the fact that 85 % of the use of the Live happens in project studios, not in live performances, and not to make improvements in arrangement/composing/Midi features, is pure stupidity.

Then please explain how no changes to the arrangement and/or midi were done in last 4-5 years? And I'd really disagree with the percentage you quoted - based on youtube, facebook and forums majority of users are beat makers, rarely getting out of the session + push combo.

[Guenon]

based on youtube, facebook and forums majority of users are beat makers, rarely getting out of the session + push combo.

I would be very surprised if the majority of Live users are also Push owners.

[Harry_HH]

I don't agree. Well, the points above we are all aware. However, neglecting totally the fact that 85 % of the use of the Live happens in project studios, not in live performances, and not to make improvements in arrangement/composing/Midi features, is pure stupidity.

Then please explain how no changes to the arrangement and/or midi were done in last 4-5 years? And I'd really disagree with the percentage you quoted - based on youtube, facebook and forums majority of users are beat makers, rarely getting out of the session + push combo.

Only minor changes arrangement/Midi from Live 8 to Live 9, 90 % of all operational improvements were made to the session view (plus of course many general improvements such a new effects, Push etc.). Its OK to put effort to the e.g. automation etc. session feature, and its OK that the main focus is in the Live´s distinctive nature, but leaving the composer point of view in arrangement, Midi, surround etc. etc. in the shadow to this degree, is stupidity.
If we take all usage hours of the Live over all users, 85 % estimation in the project studios is more likely underestimated than over-.
But none of us know what we get with the Live 10. I just wish the Ableton understands that beta testers do not represent the nature of the all Live users, if those who have orientation to "traditional" composing more than DJ performing or just playing with sample clips, leave the Live and move to other sequencers, it will be a disaster to the Ableton.

[antic604]

If we take all usage hours of the Live over all users, 85 % estimation in the project studios is more likely underestimated than over-.
But none of us know what we get with the Live 10. I just wish the Ableton understands that beta testers do not represent the nature of the all Live users, if those who have orientation to "traditional" composing more than DJ performing or just playing with sample clips, leave the Live and move to other sequencers, it will be a disaster to the Ableton.

As I said, evidence of the last five or so years points to the contrary. If you look at ableton.centercode.com (their official bug/feature tracker) then majority of most voted feature requests - e.g. grouping groups, comping, layered editing, in-clip audio editing, automation grid snapping, MPE and VST3 support... - have been there for years and are of particular importance for arrangement view users, i.e. the project studios or "traditional" composers that you refer to. If they were indeed constituting majority of users, we'd have those shortcomings addressed years ago.

Obviously the idea that Ableton is blind & stupid remains a possibility, but for all I know they do pretty well financially so they must be pretty certain about which direction is profitable for them and who their (influential) users are. It's telling that people like Mr. Bill who's one of the most technically proficient and fastest people to post Live tutorials but works exclusively - from all I've seen - in arrangement view; is not in the closed beta. One would think he'd be an ideal candidate to test new workflow ideas or feature enhancements, no?

The only puzzling thing - and a glimpse of light in an otherwise pretty dark outlook - is them buying Cycling '74, which could suggest they still want to develop that modular, experimental, geeky side of Live.

[Guenon]

The thing is, everyone who aims to make finished songs/tunes/tracks (what ever the parlance in the genre and circles one frequents ) needs to use something to make that finished mix and arrangement. Something that you can use to build the outcome into a fixed form so that you can pass it forward. I'd hazard a guess, most people who use Live in the process of producing finished tracks also mix and arrange them in Live. Many people have a dual workflow, using Live as a sound design, improvisation and "flow" platform, and then arrange and mix somewhere else - but again, personally I'm guessing they are well in the minority.

So as far as those people who create finished tracks are concerned, it's nice to have more power in the arranging, mixing and editing side of things. It's not either/or, and it's not like arrangement is just for "traditional composing" and what have you. Everyone who does full tunes in Live uses the arrangement to a considerable extent. As in, that's the mode that ultimately holds your finished work.

Ableton does acknowledge this themselves, in their marketing, of course: https://www.ableton.com/en/live/finish/