T2 near? Sonar 4, (SX3 movie with Tracktions piano roll)!

[bobaudio]

yeah, that piano roll video is amazing. It looks like they told their developers, "Here, look at Tracktion and make inline editing this easy. Use the mouse-wheel."

[kagemusha]

did you people ever saw ProTools or Digital Performer. they have inline editing for years. In Pro tools it's the only option.



K

[headquest]

did you people ever saw ProTools or Digital Performer. they have inline editing for years. In Pro tools it's the only option.



K

Well I never!

[kagemusha]

did you people ever saw ProTools or Digital Performer. they have inline editing for years. In Pro tools it's the only option.



K

Well I never!

DP



Protools

[christianmusicmaker]

did you people ever saw ProTools or Digital Performer. they have inline editing for years. In Pro tools it's the only option.



K

Well I never!

DP



Protools

Thanks Kagemusha!

[Robert Randolph]

Hrm. I didnt know anything existed except inline editing. My only real midi use in DP/PT/Tracktion/SSMW... all of which are inline editing.

Heh. Just goes to show I guess.

[headquest]

Thanks Kagemusha!

Yes, thanks! Very interesting to those of use who are PC based and don't usually look at those sequencers.

[headquest]

Now that the dust is settling on this weeks big announcements, I'm thinking that the Cubase update is more radical than the Sonar one.

Both have finally got around to implementing a proper Freeze function (SX2 froze instruments but not effects), which means that they've caught up with products like Logic, Samplitude and Tracktion in this area .

Beyond that, though, I can't really see where the "headline news" is as far as Sonar 4 goes. Beyond the anticipated surround features and useful track folders, most of the improvements sound on paper like niggling extras rather than a significant overhaul.

For example, I was rather hoping that Sonar 4 would handle VST instruments and effects "natively" without a wrapper. I was hoping for 32-bit rendering (which may be included - not clear). And I was hoping for more flexible and easier to use automation envelope features (not mentioned in the blurb). I'm not sure from the announcement whether any of these things are in place...But time will tell of course.

The demo of Sonar 3 has left me quite enthusiastic, though, and the improvements in version 4 could tempt me all the way...minor though some of them appear to be, and in spite of some disappointments.

Cubase SX3, on the other hand, sounds like a radical departure in many respects. The new looping/live audio warp features, for example, seem to be reaching out for new users. And the inline editing will change the way Cubase users can work with the programme.

In spite of all this, however, I am still bored at the whole idea of Cubase SX3. I used Cubase up until SX1 and got heartily bored with the whole look, feel, instability, unnecessary complexity of the whole thing. Cubase left me totally uninspired musically by the time I deserted the fold, and I have no intentions at all of going back. Zzzzz.

Its interesting to see both Cubase and Sonar announcements talking about "workflow" improvements - I think that Tracktion has clearly made a big impact in their thinking!

Tracktion will always be the programme I use as a music technology teacher - it makes it so easy to concentrate on helping students to develop their musical skills and understanding. But Sonar could be a programme I end up using for more advanced features such as better MIDI sequencing, looping, etc. Lovely Sonitus and Lexicon fx too.

[jens]

'SX 3 movie with Tracktion's piano-roll'

[christianmusicmaker]

'SX 3 movie with Tracktion's piano-roll'

The link is on the first post on this thread.

headquest wrote:

Now that the dust is settling on this weeks big announcements, I'm thinking that the Cubase update is more radical than the Sonar one.

Interesting post release summary, headquest.
You will always get different views on that for sure .

Both have finally got around to implementing a proper Freeze function (SX2 froze instruments but not effects), which means that they've caught up with products like Logic, Samplitude and Tracktion in this area

I know there were many Cubase users that wanted full freeze. Tracktion led Cubase and Sonar for quite a while before they caught up.I think Tracktion had it first as well.

Beyond that, though, I can't really see where the "headline news" is as far as Sonar 4 goes. Beyond the anticipated surround features and useful track folders, most of the improvements sound on paper like niggling extras rather than a significant overhaul.

The Sonar forum is certainly full of various views...some find the new features to be exactly what they want, some find Surround and AV features not needed. That is the reality of having so many different people using the same product, it's inevitable really.

For example, I was rather hoping that Sonar 4 would handle VST instruments and effects "natively" without a wrapper. I was hoping for 32-bit rendering (which may be included - not clear). And I was hoping for more flexible and easier to use automation envelope features (not mentioned in the blurb). I'm not sure from the announcement whether any of these things are in place...But time will tell of course.

Yes! I thought Cakewalk would add native VST support as well.Maybe they are still trying to push DX ahead of VST, even now...don't know, but the wrapper has not refused any VST I have thrown at it but some have reported not being able to run the Paris EQ.Worked first time for me using Sonar's wrapper.

32 bit rendering was a slight dissapointment for me.If it is there then great, if not it's a minor issue but I would be slightly puzzled as to why Cakewalk would include all the other features to catch up and stay ahead in other areas (surround compressor, Surround bridge) and not add the almost standard 32 bit export...oh well maybe I missed it in the S4 specs.

What sort of Envelope flexibility did you want in Sonar (I think you said you were trying the Sonar 3 demo) what was lacking?

Cubase SX3, on the other hand, sounds like a radical departure in many respects. The new looping/live audio warp features, for example, seem to be reaching out for new users. And the inline editing will change the way Cubase users can work with the programme.

Cubase is a very capable Product like Sonar but support for me is the problem.I had SL2 and even getting through to Steinberg support was just not possible at times the phone would ring and ring and ring for 10 - 15 minutes at a time,totally time out or go comletely silent, once I waited for 30 minutes or more then someone picked up.

I got the impression that Steinberg support were hoping I would just give up and leave them alone...very odd.

Also my copy of SL2 arrived with one digit missing from the serial number (so no way to install). I was told it is a known problem.See what I mean...all these things can add up
Then Cubase SL2 would randomly reboot my PC. Steinberg support said I should contact M -Audio and M - Audio suggested I contact Steinberg.(just my expereinces I appreciate others may differ) So in the end I changed it for Project 5.

Completely different story with Cakewalk there was always a quick response to calls, and I have found Sonar to be rock solid just like Tracktion.

One should not have to exchange stability with features.Again this was only my experience.

Audio warp is a straight nod to Live 4 and the inline editing is a very nice feature to have in Cubase but as we all know it's been around for quite a while.Nice to have in SX3.

In spite of all this, however, I am still bored at the whole idea of Cubase SX3. I used Cubase up until SX1 and got heartily bored with the whole look, feel, instability, unnecessary complexity of the whole thing. Cubase left me totally uninspired musically by the time I deserted the fold, and I have no intentions at all of going back. Zzzzz.

You have just summed up my experience with Steinberg. Even the copy of Cubasis 3 VST (that I still have )was far more stable than SL2 for me!

I read somehwere on KVR that Cubase is at beta 35 what is that? Is that Steinbergs way of saying its a beta but not a beta? It may have been just a joke by someone but it sums up my experience well.

I know every Sequencer has its bugs, minor or major but *if*....Steinberg have finally got a hold on the bug situation, support and the stability of the programme then it really would be tough to beat.Sonar 4 has all those areas better managed.Even Tracktion has.It cannot be that difficult for Pinnacle to sort out surely.

Its interesting to see both Cubase and Sonar announcements talking about "workflow" improvements -I think that Tracktion has clearly made a big impact in their thinking!

I could not agree more. Major features in Computer music magazine, the distribution by Mackie...Tracktion clearly caught their attention.

Picture the scene...the first boadroom meeting in the Steinberg top floor suite for the development of SX3. Charlie Steinberg sits at the top of a very long boardroom table with all the senior developers while tapping away on his laptop.

A question rings out..."So Charlie where do we start with plans for SX3" Charlie Steinberg smiles then looks up over his laptop hits the enter key and swirls it around to face the board...the projector kicks in and ...you guessed it... Tracktion with Live 4 rewired into it flashes onto the screen!


Hey at least they are paying attention to their users.

Tracktions biggest advantage now is price VS features the workflow is still quicker than the competition. Mackie have got to price it right.

If you own Sonar 3 Studio you can pick up Sonar 4 studio for just £69.So If an upgrade from T1 costs that much then people will make direct comparisons with products at a similar price.

For anyone who is buying a sequencer for the first time that argument goes out of the window as there is no contest for price with Tracktion's feature set especially with Final mix.

But I am sure Makcie are aware that quite a few have left the big sequencers for Tracktion so there is market share available for the taking even now...they know a carefully priced Tracktion 2 will draw more users way from the big players.

[headquest]

Interesting post release summary, headquest.
You will always get different views on that for sure .

Yep - got that!

Yes! I thought Cakewalk would add native VST support as well.Maybe they are still trying to push DX ahead of VST, even now...don't know, but the wrapper has not refused any VST I have thrown at it but some have reported not being able to run the Paris EQ.Worked first time for me using Sonar's wrapper.

That's encouraging. The demo is frustrating because some features - including the VST wrapper - aren't there. Is the wrapper seamless or are you always aware it's there? And is it native to Cakewalk, or third party?

32 bit rendering was a slight dissapointment for me.If it is there then great, if not it's a minor issue but I would be slightly puzzled as to why Cakewalk would include all the other features to catch up and stay ahead in other areas (surround compressor, Surround bridge) and not add the almost standard 32 bit export...oh well maybe I missed it in the S4 specs.

The specs mention improved export/rendering, so it could well be there - just not specifically mentioned.

What sort of Envelope flexibility did you want in Sonar (I think you said you were trying the Sonar 3 demo) what was lacking?

It took me longer than I expected to find automation envolopes at all. There are various buttons relating to them which I didn't understand, and the implementation seemed unnecessarily complicated.

However, I have found that by right clicking you can add envelopes and choose between straight or curved. From what I've worked out so far the curved envelopes seem to have to be individually selected on each and every line added. Is there an easier way that I've overlooked.

Also I've not found away of making the curves "spline" as in Audition (which has the best automation cures I;ve seen, but doesn't offer all the VST parameters for automation so far as I;ve worked out yet!)

Cubase is a very capable Product like Sonar but support for me is the problem.

Sounds like you had a pretty bad time! Sorry to hear that (though not surprised.)

I know every Sequencer has its bugs, minor or major but *if*....Steinberg have finally got a hold on the bug situation, support and the stability of the programme then it really would be tough to beat.

But you won't be going back, right?!

If I were Mackie Iwouldn't be planning an announcement until the dust has settled on these otheres. Tracktion is continuing to grow a loyal customer base in v.1.6 at present. It will be interesting to see what happens with v.2, but I'm in no hurry.

I'm also still in a quandry with Live 4. As you know i have Live 2 and planned to upgrade. I went for the boxed version, but got cold feet at the last minute. Sure, it looks awesome, but I just haven't used Live 2 like I thought I would, and personally i just prefer to work on a traditional timeline, not using clips. EVEN for loop stuff (I used to be an Acid user, but don't tell anyone ) This is one reason that I've gone for Audition, and also something I love in Sonar 3 demo - what a great feature the "Groove Clip" is -perhaps the best of its kind since Acid came out. I just prefer this way of looping to Live. And yet... I'll probably still get the Live 4 upgrade at some point .

cheers again!

[christianmusicmaker]

That's encouraging. The demo is frustrating because some features - including the VST wrapper - aren't there. Is the wrapper seamless or are you always aware it's there? And is it native to Cakewalk, or third party?

For me I think it seamless.Cakewalk bought the wrapper from FXpansion. If you have any VST FX you can open up the wrapper separately from Sonar and browse to your VST folder.It will then scan them and that is it! This is what I do.Now clearly you will get different views from users but I can tell you it works for me. Then after that, close the wrapper and restart Sonar and they will all appear in you drop down list of FX.

That is how I have always done it.But...as a new version is out you will probably do well to wait for the demo, maybe even at least a patch before buying.The demo should be out around end of October- early November so that also gives you plenty of time to see what Mackie come up with. I hear the Winter NAMM event in January is the latest date being thrown around for T2

It took me longer than I expected to find automation envolopes at all. There are various buttons relating to them which I didn't understand, and the implementation seemed unnecessarily complicated.

However, I have found that by right clicking you can add envelopes and choose between straight or curved. From what I've worked out so far the curved envelopes seem to have to be individually selected on each and every line added. Is there an easier way that I've overlooked.

Not sure if there is an easier way...sorry

I've not found away of making the curves "spline" as in Audition (which has the best automation cures I;ve seen, but doesn't offer all the VST parameters for automation so far as I;ve worked out yet!)

Not sure about making curves *spline* in Sonar...I am surpirsed AA does not offer all the VST parameters especially for an audio editor as fully featured as that, maybe I too need to see if there is a way as AA is on my potential shopping list

But you won't be going back, right?!

It's too late now...even if all their problems have been sorted out. I spent £50 on Tracktion and have all the stability and support I need.So I cannot see myself going the Steinberg route ever.Steinberg come across as a company that really dont care much for their customers at all. Releasing software that clearly is still beta and charging hundreds of pounds for it is simply of no interest to me. That is the way I see it.

It was so refreshing the other day when Jules answered a post on this forum and said "just send me an archive or something and I will have a look at it".I mean this is THE developer we are talking about...brilliant.

If I were Mackie Iwouldn't be planning an announcement until the dust has settled on these otheres. Tracktion is continuing to grow a loyal customer base in v.1.6 at present. It will be interesting to see what happens with v.2, but I'm in no hurry.

Agreed, I am sure Mackie do not want to go head to head with SX3 and Sonar 4!It maybe better for T2 to arrive post SX3 and S4 anyway.Jules can now possibly add some features from those products that will work well in T2! Seriously, they all do it!

I'm also still in a quandry with Live 4. As you know i have Live 2 and planned to upgrade. I went for the boxed version, but got cold feet at the last minute. Sure, it looks awesome, but I just haven't used Live 2 like I thought I would, and personally i just prefer to work on a traditional timeline, not using clips.

If that is the case then I would not get Live 4 if I were you, Ableton are not really aiming it at someone with your approach although you could use the traditional time line view that is available in Live but again you would likely be looking for things that it is not really designed for...I did not upgrade from Live 3 because Live 4 does not have PDC.It's a great programme though.

[headquest]

For me I think it seamless.Cakewalk bought the wrapper from FXpansion...

But...as a new version is out you will probably do well to wait for the demo, maybe even at least a patch before buying.The demo should be out around end of October- early November so that also gives you plenty of time to see what Mackie come up with. I hear the Winter NAMM event in January is the latest date being thrown around for T2

Will definitely wait and try demo. Also want to see what happens with T2 . Really not in a hurry to switch to Sonar, and as I said, the v.4 announcement contained some disappointments.

Regarding DX/VST wrapper, I think that some of my lovely Kjaerhus effects don't show GUI when taken through a wrapper.

Also, I learnt on another thread that the Sonitus fx: Suite only ships with DX version with Sonar - so I couldn;t use them in Tracktion . There goes one of Sonar's big draws in my eyes...

Not sure about making curves *spline* in Sonar...I am surpirsed AA does not offer all the VST parameters especially for an audio editor as fully featured as that, maybe I too need to see if there is a way as AA is on my potential shopping list

I think that you probably can - I just need to spend more time learning the programme

I did not upgrade from Live 3 because Live 4 does not have PDC.It's a great programme though.

But if you ReWire Live 4 into Tracktion, doesn't Tracktion's PDC come into effect?

[christianmusicmaker]

But if you ReWire Live 4 into Tracktion, doesn't Tracktion's PDC come into effect?

Good point it should really but I'm not sure... anyway with T2 probably close I will stick with Live 3 for audio tricks for now and use T2's expected improved midi features instead of getting Live 4 and using midi features in that.

[h2ogun99]

anyway with T2 probably close I will stick with Live 3 for audio tricks for now and use T2's expected improved midi features instead of getting Live 4 and using midi features in that.

You see, Tracktion has lost its magic for me. I know it has been said time and time agian how much we miss Jules and his paticipation in this forum. I was an evangalist for Tracktion. Our problem now is that we have no idea when T2 will be around or for that matter if T2 is even in the works.(look at muzy's) Silence is not good for any product because it leads to speculation. I wish it was like the good old days where I would run home from work with a fresh version of Tracktion on a cd. It was like we were part of something. Hey, I know Jules might be coding, but he was coding back then too and we had a regular list of what was and will be working on. When you bought tracktion you were also purchasing Jules as part of the package. It seems that part is missing. I hate the fact that I switched to Sonar3 and Live4. For one it cost me money, and it also took some of the fun away that Tracktion gave me. Yet I needed the features that these programs offered and I had no idea if I would ever see them in tracktion. This is sad because before the whole Mackie thing it seemed as if it was only a few weeks away.......

Sorry for this rant, I needed to get it off my hairless chest

Lance