Well now you have a reason, if you want Waveform 9 go for 64 bits, or could stay forever on Waveform 8ZeePok wrote:
Fully agree! There's really no need for 64-bit when you're not using sample based instruments, just regular plugins.
My computer is from 2006 Q4. It came with 1 Gb RAM, so there was no need for 64-bit. I expanded to 4 Gb, but I still don't see the need for 64-bit! Don't need the hassle of a reinstall when all is working fine!
Waveform Dev Update/Look to the Future
-
- KVRist
- 128 posts since 15 Jul, 2017 from Monterrey
Quad Core | 16GB DDR4 | 240 GB SSD + 1 TB HDD | FLStudio ASIO | 1 GB Video | W10 x64
-
- KVRer
- 28 posts since 12 Dec, 2016
"Dear user, you will have less bugs since we no longer allow you to use your buggy plug-ins..."The other problem that I mentioned is that there are a lot of old 32-bit plugins lying around that really don't cut it anymore. They might have inherent problems such as not handling multiple threads very well because back in the day there was only a single audio thread. Moving to 64-bit gives us an opportunity to only support reasonably newer code that's more likely to be supported by developers and deal with common modern practices.
That sounds good in theory, the practice with other DAWs shows different effect: such users instead of dropping old plug-ins start to use them inside BitBridges in 64bit DAW. And as well known, that produce even more troubles.
Do you mean when someone with 8GB computer and 64bit Windows have installed 32bit Waveform? You can show a big red warning during the installation (and even downloading) if you want prevent such mistake...I know there are some of you who have old machines that don't use large sample based plugins but there are a lot of people who do. If they're using the 32-bit version and run out of memory then bad things can happen.
But what happens in case someone with 2-4GB RAM install 64bit Windows just to run 64bit Waveform9? He/she will be surprised to find that what was working fine before instantly runs out of memory.
-
- KVRist
- 301 posts since 9 Sep, 2005 from Washington State. USA
Like many, I bit the bullet 5 years ago and went 64 bit, so no problem here with dropping 32 bit support. Obviously, such a decision would be a big deal for those with older systems: perhaps introducing better diagnostics first might give you a better idea of how many users would be impacted? (And as a developer, if you've isolated plugin issues as the overwhelming driver of support issues, I completely understand wanting to constrain the variables a bit, especially when it comes to really old synthedit-style plugins that are no longer being maintained).
I know it's been brought up many times, but finding a way to sandbox plugins so they don't take down Waveform completely would likely go a long way in making it clear who is the real culprit concerning crashes. (While saving lots of heartache about losing progress between saves/auto-saves).
I know it's been brought up many times, but finding a way to sandbox plugins so they don't take down Waveform completely would likely go a long way in making it clear who is the real culprit concerning crashes. (While saving lots of heartache about losing progress between saves/auto-saves).
iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017), 4.2 GHz Intel Core i7
Radeon Pro 580 8 GB
Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 3rd Gen
Waveform 11 Pro/Studio One Pro 3.5
Radeon Pro 580 8 GB
Focusrite Scarlett 4i4 3rd Gen
Waveform 11 Pro/Studio One Pro 3.5
-
- KVRAF
- 2461 posts since 9 Oct, 2008 from UK
I've installed both versions on my 64-bit laptop from T5 onwards due to Melodyne Studio, which cost more a bit more than Tracktion, not being 64-bit back then.Uhotug wrote: Do you mean when someone with 8GB computer and 64bit Windows have installed 32bit Waveform? You can show a big red warning during the installation (and even downloading) if you want prevent such mistake...
[W10-64, T5/6/7/W8/9/10/11/12/13, 32(to W8)&64 all, Spike],[W7-32, T5/6/7/W8, Gina16] everything underused.
-
- KVRist
- 320 posts since 9 Sep, 2017
I think it is acceptable to release next versions only as 64bit.
I can only recommend everyone to buy a computer every 8 yrs or so, as almost everyone uses the internet, and websites are consuming more RAM space and CPU power nowadays. You will end up with a 64bit OS eventually.
Still I believe it is very important to have a sandboxing and bridging infrastructure, like Cubase seems to have (a friend of mine is using it and a dead VST bridge does not tear down the main program, so he can save his project and then restart.)
But his older Cubase has display problems with plugins like Knufinke-SIR and Cockos compressor, and some plugins really crash the whole thing, and others do not correctly display the GUI and knobs are falling off the edge.
These plugins are working well with T6, thus the mention. T6 here has fewer GUI crashes. Probably all achievements are valid also for later versions.
There might be a switch to create for sandboxing and logging (or a secondary exe), that makes the software faster, when turned off. It might be very synergetic to reward contributors of reports.
Tracktion does not have the image of being high-priced. Therefor many non-professional music lovers will run it too, for all kinds of purposes. But they will surely want to use the many old and good sounding 32bit plugins, and quite a bunch of free stuff.
T6 behaves as if it cannot tolerate parameter buffer overruns and erraneous empty data fields or zero pointers, coming from plugin software errors. This might be a sandbox thing, mainly it depends on the programming infrastructure, that supports certain ways of error handling. Also, it crashes at some Windows errors (unsuccessful API calls), where MS-Office does not crash but give me some suggestions.
Perhaps the abstraction of error conditions across the various platforms is very difficult..
For climbing up the ladder to the great professional DAW walk of stars, it might be quite helpful to create a safer VST infrastructure, including the bridging. I don't say it's not quite good already, but the situation with the very many non-professionals is probably creating additional momentum into that direction.
My spare time allows me to find out a couple of workarounds for the crashes, and to learn which moves/constructs to avoid.
I can only recommend everyone to buy a computer every 8 yrs or so, as almost everyone uses the internet, and websites are consuming more RAM space and CPU power nowadays. You will end up with a 64bit OS eventually.
Still I believe it is very important to have a sandboxing and bridging infrastructure, like Cubase seems to have (a friend of mine is using it and a dead VST bridge does not tear down the main program, so he can save his project and then restart.)
But his older Cubase has display problems with plugins like Knufinke-SIR and Cockos compressor, and some plugins really crash the whole thing, and others do not correctly display the GUI and knobs are falling off the edge.
These plugins are working well with T6, thus the mention. T6 here has fewer GUI crashes. Probably all achievements are valid also for later versions.
There might be a switch to create for sandboxing and logging (or a secondary exe), that makes the software faster, when turned off. It might be very synergetic to reward contributors of reports.
Tracktion does not have the image of being high-priced. Therefor many non-professional music lovers will run it too, for all kinds of purposes. But they will surely want to use the many old and good sounding 32bit plugins, and quite a bunch of free stuff.
T6 behaves as if it cannot tolerate parameter buffer overruns and erraneous empty data fields or zero pointers, coming from plugin software errors. This might be a sandbox thing, mainly it depends on the programming infrastructure, that supports certain ways of error handling. Also, it crashes at some Windows errors (unsuccessful API calls), where MS-Office does not crash but give me some suggestions.
Perhaps the abstraction of error conditions across the various platforms is very difficult..
For climbing up the ladder to the great professional DAW walk of stars, it might be quite helpful to create a safer VST infrastructure, including the bridging. I don't say it's not quite good already, but the situation with the very many non-professionals is probably creating additional momentum into that direction.
My spare time allows me to find out a couple of workarounds for the crashes, and to learn which moves/constructs to avoid.
-
- KVRist
- 436 posts since 26 Jul, 2012 from Prague, czech republic
64bit but with 32bit bridge i miss this very much (renoise, reaper and fl studio they have it], there are some synths there i cant replace right now.
-
- KVRAF
- 1674 posts since 13 Jan, 2014
Have not read all the post before cause I just realized that this was a new post on update, not the old one, but one clear comment:
- I stayed with Tracktion from T2
- but if you dont fix the collective problem on win 7 64 bit (that DONT come from other devellopers not fulfilling your standard so that their plugins crash waveform) in 8.xx whatever number and whenever I definitely wont buy any waveform 9
Sorry, I love all the midi pattern stuff and other new things, but its just ridiculous (for me) talking about a PAID !! wavefrom 9 withouth solving at least the major bugs of this waveform 8 (beta ????)
May sound harsh, and I know you have to pay the bills, but.....
- I stayed with Tracktion from T2
- but if you dont fix the collective problem on win 7 64 bit (that DONT come from other devellopers not fulfilling your standard so that their plugins crash waveform) in 8.xx whatever number and whenever I definitely wont buy any waveform 9
Sorry, I love all the midi pattern stuff and other new things, but its just ridiculous (for me) talking about a PAID !! wavefrom 9 withouth solving at least the major bugs of this waveform 8 (beta ????)
May sound harsh, and I know you have to pay the bills, but.....
-
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1790 posts since 30 Dec, 2012
Yes, I really want to get the Collective issue solved too. We have a new beta we'll be releasing tonight that we're hoping will help.
As I've said mentioned before though, the 15-odd test machines we have don't exhibit the problem so we really need feedback to know if it has been fixed by our changes.
As I've said mentioned before though, the 15-odd test machines we have don't exhibit the problem so we really need feedback to know if it has been fixed by our changes.
-
- KVRist
- 89 posts since 2 Jul, 2017
My quick answers:
1) drop 32bits. Drop Raspberry while you're at it. Unless the analytics tell you differently.
2) analyze, it's fine, as long as it's anonymized and there's an opt-out, for some people. For me, I'm happy to help.
3) make sure to make the bug reports as easy and quick as possible. If I need to jump through hoops, create a special account, log-on and waste 10 minutes before I can start to report a bug, it's a no-go. If I can do that directly from WF I'm good.
1) drop 32bits. Drop Raspberry while you're at it. Unless the analytics tell you differently.
2) analyze, it's fine, as long as it's anonymized and there's an opt-out, for some people. For me, I'm happy to help.
3) make sure to make the bug reports as easy and quick as possible. If I need to jump through hoops, create a special account, log-on and waste 10 minutes before I can start to report a bug, it's a no-go. If I can do that directly from WF I'm good.
-
- KVRAF
- 1674 posts since 13 Jan, 2014
+ 13) make sure to make the bug reports as easy and quick as possible. If I need to jump through hoops, create a special account, log-on and waste 10 minutes before I can start to report a bug, it's a no-go. If I can do that directly from WF I'm good.
-
- KVRian
- 599 posts since 8 Apr, 2014 from USA
Hi Dave.
64 bit only: Definitely
Analytics: Great Idea
Public Beta: I’d say open beta for those who have a license, then time limited public beta (for everyone) after a month or so when things are more stable. You only have 1 chance to make a first impression.
About stability and plugins...
As I think you know, I really like Waveform and am an advocate. There are two things that keep it out of regular use in my daily workflow. One is feature related (and we’ve discussed it), the other has to do with stability under load. When I have tried to use Waveform in paid projects, it eventually becomes a bit crash prone and inevitably this happens as the deadline approaches!
However reading that the majority of issues are coming from 3rd party plugins potentially explains a lot. I tend to use a lot of plugins in projects and that number often maxs out towards the end of the project, so maybe your revelations help to explain that.
I know it’s probably a huge effort, but any chance you can implement a sandbox ( I think that is the term) like Bitwig uses to isolate each plugin in its own process? Their method is really flexible and optional for that matter. Somehow they are also able to support 32bit plugins also I believe.
Anyway, I think what you’ve laid out sounds great.
(gnapier)
64 bit only: Definitely
Analytics: Great Idea
Public Beta: I’d say open beta for those who have a license, then time limited public beta (for everyone) after a month or so when things are more stable. You only have 1 chance to make a first impression.
About stability and plugins...
As I think you know, I really like Waveform and am an advocate. There are two things that keep it out of regular use in my daily workflow. One is feature related (and we’ve discussed it), the other has to do with stability under load. When I have tried to use Waveform in paid projects, it eventually becomes a bit crash prone and inevitably this happens as the deadline approaches!
However reading that the majority of issues are coming from 3rd party plugins potentially explains a lot. I tend to use a lot of plugins in projects and that number often maxs out towards the end of the project, so maybe your revelations help to explain that.I know it’s probably a huge effort, but any chance you can implement a sandbox ( I think that is the term) like Bitwig uses to isolate each plugin in its own process? Their method is really flexible and optional for that matter. Somehow they are also able to support 32bit plugins also I believe.
Anyway, I think what you’ve laid out sounds great.
(gnapier)
-
- KVRian
- 538 posts since 23 Jan, 2008 from Hamburg, Germany
Things like that are usually not market driven. The Raspberry version looks like a small fun project from one or more of the developers.ErBen wrote:Drop Raspberry while you're at it.
Developers need side projects like that to keep a clear head. It usually doesn't take away time from the main project.
-
- KVRAF
- 3735 posts since 17 Sep, 2016
Hi Dave, thanks for the updates!
My thoughts on your questions are:
1. Dropping 32-bit support for future releases. YES!
That said, if anyone is still running a 32-bit version of Tracktion or Waveform, it will not suddenly stop working. If Tracktion continues supporting Waveform 8 32-bit for another year or two, there is plenty of time for users to get things sorted out. Even afterwards, it will still be possible to continue running old hardware, old OS, and old Tracktion, until the hardware quits.
2. Analytics. Yes, since you covered the anonymous use and the opt-out, that should be fine. Especially with the demo version.
3. Public beta for a month. Yes, as many users that can provide feedback before release should help improve the release version.
A footnote on 32-bit vs 64-bit:
I was a holdout on 32-bit Windows OS until last year. I had acquired a copy of Windows 7 OEM 32-bit when it was first released, but it sat in shrink wrap for years, and I remained on Win XP, until Microsoft end-of-lifed it in 2014. Win XP (x86) had been working fine on my Pentium 4 (x86 only), 2 GB build that I was still running. So when I finally decided to rebuild my DAW with a modern Intel Core CPU (x64 capable), I only had the media to install the 32-bit version of Windows 7. So I went with the 32-bit installer.
So last year I decided to upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10 and used that opportunity to switch bit level to 64-bit Windows. It is a huge relief not to worry any more about developers dropping 32-bit support. That seems to be happening more and more today. If you want to be running the latest applications in the forseeable future, it is time to upgrade. If not, you can continue running your old stuff, but just be aware that you will get less and less support as time goes on. It is reasonable for developers to make this call, and in this particular case, Tracktion devs are giving us very good notice.
My thoughts on your questions are:
1. Dropping 32-bit support for future releases. YES!
That said, if anyone is still running a 32-bit version of Tracktion or Waveform, it will not suddenly stop working. If Tracktion continues supporting Waveform 8 32-bit for another year or two, there is plenty of time for users to get things sorted out. Even afterwards, it will still be possible to continue running old hardware, old OS, and old Tracktion, until the hardware quits.
2. Analytics. Yes, since you covered the anonymous use and the opt-out, that should be fine. Especially with the demo version.
3. Public beta for a month. Yes, as many users that can provide feedback before release should help improve the release version.
A footnote on 32-bit vs 64-bit:
I was a holdout on 32-bit Windows OS until last year. I had acquired a copy of Windows 7 OEM 32-bit when it was first released, but it sat in shrink wrap for years, and I remained on Win XP, until Microsoft end-of-lifed it in 2014. Win XP (x86) had been working fine on my Pentium 4 (x86 only), 2 GB build that I was still running. So when I finally decided to rebuild my DAW with a modern Intel Core CPU (x64 capable), I only had the media to install the 32-bit version of Windows 7. So I went with the 32-bit installer.
So last year I decided to upgrade from Windows 7 to Windows 10 and used that opportunity to switch bit level to 64-bit Windows. It is a huge relief not to worry any more about developers dropping 32-bit support. That seems to be happening more and more today. If you want to be running the latest applications in the forseeable future, it is time to upgrade. If not, you can continue running your old stuff, but just be aware that you will get less and less support as time goes on. It is reasonable for developers to make this call, and in this particular case, Tracktion devs are giving us very good notice.
Windows 10 and too many plugins