Ableton LIVE 10 ... Officially Announced. (plus: Buy LIVE 9 now with 20% discount, get LIVE 10 free)

[Uriel Anthony]

It could be possible this round that Live 10 might actually come with native LFO and Envelope Follower devices since these are probably the most useful/used (and if not, requested) primary functions in any DAW. Fingers crossed?

man, that would be amazing. since I've started using LIVE at version 4, this feature has been requested ... and I've forgotten all the technical prohibitive reasons that were alluded to all these years ... you'd often hear 'undo implications' and 'major re-write' get thrown around though.

as someone who spends 90% of his time in ableton experimenting and designing sounds ... a native, i.e cpu efficient, LFO would just be a godsend. I'm really hoping for it ... but at the same time if it's not delivered I won't be surprised since it hasn't been delivered all these years, despite the constant demand.

the one thing that bodes well for it happening though is Ableton's policy shift after the LIVE 8 debacle ... they shifted from their yearly update cycle to ... what ... 4+ year update cycle. So, in having spent over 8 years (possibly closer to 9 by the time it's released) getting from LIVE 8 to LIVE 10, one can only hope they could overcome those development hurdles that have prevented them from implementing a native LFO/modulator previously.

fingers crossed.

Haha. Doesn't Cubase has a native LFO device? Wonder what miraculous programming they came up with to overcome those "technical prohibitive reasons".

To be a really good programmer one also has to be creative. A lot of them can't think outside the box to see alternate solutions and simply say "it can't be done", or maybe they're just lazy who knows. Sometimes coding something just to provide a simple function can actually take up quite a bit of time.

On a sidenote, did any of you get a survey from Ableton like about 2 months ago on what to improve in Live?

[Uriel Anthony]

Artist called Soundprank wrote this in may

"Ableton is focusing future R&D less on composer/producer specific features and more on Push and live-performance/beat-based production."

Plus we producers talk a lot about DAW's and so on.. Not the first time when this above text came up, but still like I said, rumours are rumours..

Sure, but so many producers amount to little more than a random guy on the internet with an ill-formed opinion and minimal understanding of the tools they're using. Cutting back on "composer/producer" features would be suicidal and a boon to their competitors, so I don't believe that's going to happen.

Agreed. I'm going with the view that they didn't purchase Cycling 74 just because they want to play with OSC for new controllers.

Then again, this is a typical KVR discussion where a long and developed argument develops pitting various speculations vaguely grounded in extremely tenuous evidence against each other

Yup. Honestly, I wouldn't even bother to think about it until Live 10 is out. It's not like my Live 9 license is gonna expire after 10 is out. I'll still have plenty of time to look around for a new replacement DAW should that unfortunate need ever arises. You don't jump off a ship just because you heard someone uttered "hole". You guys are funny.

[ghettosynth]

Oh, I think everyone knows that! The main complaint is however, that you need to actually run whole MaxForLive if you want to use *simpler* Max devices like the LFO or Envelope Follower, whereas they could easily been "compiled" to be a native Live devices.

well, no. There's no such thing as 'easy compilation' from generic MAX patches to native code.

Yes, but in fairness, I think that antic meant that there's no reason that the devices could not have been coded, and consequently "compiled", as native live devices. Of course, "no reason" is an overstatement, but, I agree with the sentiment that Ableton should have already developed some more efficient native devices for those common cases.

What I'd really wish that they would do is release an SDK so that other people could create native devices. It's one of the few platforms where it matters.

That's a great idea but I seriously doubt Ableton will ever release an end user compiler. It'd just open up a whole can of worms in terms of tech support. They are not liable to troubleshoot problems due to your buggy compiles.

I'm just talking about an SDK, e.g., like the VST sdk. An SDK is not a "compiler." You can already use externals with MFL so the threat of instability owing to user creations is already there.

It could be possible this round that Live 10 might actually come with native LFO and Envelope Follower devices since these are probably the most useful/used (and if not, requested) primary functions in any DAW. Fingers crossed?

Sure, but, my interest in an SDK goes beyond that. I would like to see devs creating native devices for Live because the usability is definitely better with native devices than with VST/AU plugins.

[Daags]

It could be possible this round that Live 10 might actually come with native LFO and Envelope Follower devices since these are probably the most useful/used (and if not, requested) primary functions in any DAW. Fingers crossed?

man, that would be amazing. since I've started using LIVE at version 4, this feature has been requested ... and I've forgotten all the technical prohibitive reasons that were alluded to all these years ... you'd often hear 'undo implications' and 'major re-write' get thrown around though.

as someone who spends 90% of his time in ableton experimenting and designing sounds ... a native, i.e cpu efficient, LFO would just be a godsend. I'm really hoping for it ... but at the same time if it's not delivered I won't be surprised since it hasn't been delivered all these years, despite the constant demand.

the one thing that bodes well for it happening though is Ableton's policy shift after the LIVE 8 debacle ... they shifted from their yearly update cycle to ... what ... 4+ year update cycle. So, in having spent over 8 years (possibly closer to 9 by the time it's released) getting from LIVE 8 to LIVE 10, one can only hope they could overcome those development hurdles that have prevented them from implementing a native LFO/modulator previously.

fingers crossed.

Haha. Doesn't Cubase has a native LFO device? Wonder what miraculous programming they came up with to overcome those "technical prohibitive reasons".

Cubase isn't ableton LIVE .... the way it was first developed was not to be a traditional DAW, so I guess they programmed themselves into a corner by the time it became a hit and all of a sudden there were many expectations to deliver .... and they just kept things spinning on that year cycle so as not to lose the market momentum. Business wise, they were probably right to keep that mad 1-yr update cycle going .... but by LIVE 8 all the issues that policy brought it had reached breaking point. But by then, their footing in the market place was solid and they were a relatively huge player.

anyway, I hope the 9 years between 8 and 10 gave them some development room to do that major rewrite that was often mentioned since those LIVE 4 days ... or at least figure out big headaches like native modulaters.

[Daags]

Oh, I think everyone knows that! The main complaint is however, that you need to actually run whole MaxForLive if you want to use *simpler* Max devices like the LFO or Envelope Follower, whereas they could easily been "compiled" to be a native Live devices.

well, no. There's no such thing as 'easy compilation' from generic MAX patches to native code.

Yes, but in fairness, I think that antic meant that there's no reason that the devices could not have been coded, and consequently "compiled", as native live devices. Of course, "no reason" is an overstatement, but, I agree with the sentiment that Ableton should have already developed some more efficient native devices for those common cases.

What I'd really wish that they would do is release an SDK so that other people could create native devices. It's one of the few platforms where it matters.

That's a great idea but I seriously doubt Ableton will ever release an end user compiler. It'd just open up a whole can of worms in terms of tech support. They are not liable to troubleshoot problems due to your buggy compiles.

I'm just talking about an SDK, e.g., like the VST sdk. An SDK is not a "compiler." You can already use externals with MFL so the threat of instability owing to user creations is already there.

It could be possible this round that Live 10 might actually come with native LFO and Envelope Follower devices since these are probably the most useful/used (and if not, requested) primary functions in any DAW. Fingers crossed?

Sure, but, my interest in an SDK goes beyond that. I would like to see devs creating native devices for Live because the usability is definitely better with native devices than with VST/AU plugins.

I'm sure plenty of cool things could be developed and delivered with what you're describing ...

but what makes you think it's an answer to the most frequently requested features (as in native lfo) that Ableton themselves have been unable to deliver, and open about stating it most likely can't be delivered without a major rewrite of the program ?

maybe it's a design purity objection they have ... but they've never really shot the idea down in those terms, always technical terms.

[SLiC]

There are already clip based DAWS with native LFOs and a multitude if other modulators, maybe LIVE don't want to compete in that field, or maybe they are going to launch a fully modular 'roll your own' platform at Suite level....

Its going to be fune watching rumours, announcement, disappointment, adulation, arguments and all of the other fun stuff that always seems top go on with a big update. Bring it on

[Daags]

There are already clip based DAWS with native LFOs and a multitude if other modulators, maybe LIVE don't want to compete in that field

that has not historically been the case, and as I said ... native LFO has been a top 10, top 5 feature request for at least 14 years of my Ableton LIVE experience ... the reason it never happened has always been a technical one, not a marketing one. memory may be sketchy, but the implications it would have on their UNDO buffer, or something related to that core area of the program, is the one technical reason I recall being offered by the likes of Robert Henke and various other members of the development team back when they were very engaged with the community ... with the ultimate technical response being it would take a major re-writing of some huge, fundamental aspect of the code.


Considering Ableton are the ones who made clip based DAWs a major player in the field ...the idea that they would willfully secede any ground to competitors in this realm seems completely fatuous to me. More likely that the reason we haven't had native LFO's and modulators yet is the same reason it always was: technical. not 'ohh well, our main clip based competitor is doing that ... we may as well not bother'

[pdxindy]

There are already clip based DAWS with native LFOs and a multitude if other modulators, maybe LIVE don't want to compete in that field

that has not historically been the case, and as I said ... native LFO has been a top 10, top 5 feature request for at least 14 years of my Ableton LIVE experience ... the reason it never happened has always been a technical one, not a marketing one. memory may be sketchy, but the implications it would have on their UNDO buffer, or something related to that core area of the program, is the one technical reason I recall being offered by the likes of Robert Henke and various other members of the development team back when they were very engaged with the community ... with the ultimate technical response being it would take a major re-writing of some huge, fundamental aspect of the code.


Considering Ableton are the ones who made clip based DAWs a major player in the field ...the idea that they would willfully secede any ground to competitors in this realm seems completely fatuous to me. More likely that the reason we haven't had native LFO's and modulators yet is the same reason it always was: technical. not 'ohh well, our main clip based competitor is doing that ... we may as well not bother'

My impression is that it is not so much a technical issue, but that Ableton is committed to M4L. So my guess is that they have aimed at making M4L as seamless, efficient and integrated as possible.

[Daags]

Not sure what your impression is based on, but mine is based on direct statements from the development team over the course of many years.

Ableton LIVE was prototyped in MAX/msp ... and if I'm not mistaken many if not all of their native devices get prototyped in MAX/msp first before being further developed into the core program. My point is, Ableton's love affair with max goes right to the very foundation of the company, even before the company ... that they collaborated in creating M4L, and even bought Cycling 74, is no reliable indication - imo - that this is their answer to delivering the oft requested native LFO in spite of the otherwise technical reasons they couldn't do it themselves. That would be like using a nuclear reactor to kill a fly. I am sure they want to make M4L integration as seamless, efficient and integrated as possible ... but with a scope grander than cpu chugging LFO's in mind.

Besides, Ableton aren't stupid ... the M4L LFO's may offer some user-experience advantages ... but their CPU blows, and a 3rd party midi LFO is a vastly superior option in terms of CPU load, in my experience, if you're willing to burn a few braincells piping the midi around. M4L or not, Ableton surely know a bona fide native LFO is the ideal LFO to use in LIVE regardless of M4L integrtion... if not by trying it themselves, then by simply listening to the endless user feedback they receive on this issue.

of course, if they can somehow make an M4L LFO perform as efficiently as you'd expect a bonafide native version to perform, I'm fine with that - thought skeptical it can happen. but if such a thing happened they may get some user kickback regardless, unless M4L becomes part of the standard package ...

[xbitz]

hope it brings more girl-power to the sausage room

respect to Spaceprodigi

>> https://ask.audio/academy?nleloc=course ... leton-live

[pottering]

Ableton has native modulation... Stop talking like it hasn't...

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques ... modulation

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/artic ... Modulation



http://www.macableton.com/automation-mo ... eton-live/

When it is a VST plugin that let's you draw modulation like that, copy and paste it, stretch it, then people rave about it and pay $60, but when it is a Ableton feature suddenly there is collective amnesia.

[Daags]

Ableton has native modulation... Stop talking like it hasn't...

[tenshin111]

Ableton has native modulation... Stop talking like it hasn't...

[pottering]

Why the f**k make it personal?

[.jon]

I've never understood the rave about Bitwig's modulation or calls for "native LFO" in Live. All my plugins that benefit from such have it, and so do Live's own devices. And automation or recording the parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of time anyway.