Ableton LIVE 10 ... Officially Announced. (plus: Buy LIVE 9 now with 20% discount, get LIVE 10 free)

[ATS]

I've never understood the rave about Bitwig's modulation or calls for "native LFO" in Live. All my plugins that benefit from such have it, and so do Live's own devices. And automation or recording the parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of time anyway.

then I guess it's for the .2% of the time

[Daags]

I've never understood the rave about Bitwig's modulation or calls for "native LFO" in Live. All my plugins that benefit from such have it, and so do Live's own devices. And automation or recording the parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of time anyway.

Well I guess if you never understood it, everyone else is probably over thinking it .... good that you've never missed it though. put another tick in your personal 'win' column

I'll get a message out on the wire, let everyone know that recording some parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of the time anyway, so we can put an end to this nonsense once and for all.



seems your idea of LFO and modulation is vanilla, to put it mildly.

I don't presume to speak for every benefit of native LFO's etc, but it's not something that is simply replicated by have a few dedicated LFOs in your synth to make a 'wub wub' bassline, nor is automation recording of parameter tweaks superior or even a viable alternative... if your uses for modulation go beyond vanilla anyway.


think LFOs modulating LFOs, at rates that are divisions of one another ... that is possibly the most basic thing you could start doing with native modulators, and it's already opening a whole new scope of sound design and composition.

The whole, massive wave of Eurorack development and participation by ever expanding segments of the music community is in large part because of the results one can achieve when being able to mix and cross-mix various types of modulators, to modulate each other, and sequencers, and sequencers that interact with the modulation .... people enjoy generating these kind of systems and the sounds and sequences they can produce.

if you don't get it, that's really a good bonus for you, because for people like me who want to stick with ableton it really sucks not having it built in.

[zihlmannsven]

I really don`t hope they implement a native lfo, or at least not before adding a new engine, because that could open up the possibility to use this one in the chain to provide a workaround for off-sync lfo`s and i think this way we will never see a working pdc. How annoying that would be if plugins have an integrated lfo which isn`t properly synced to the clock, because of laggy compensation, and i will have to replace each one of them with another device. Instead i really hope for a rewrite of the engine in live 10 to fix the pdc once and for all, if not i will definitely spend my money elsewhere. It would also be nice if they would give us more options to choose how live compensates when recording audio/midi per channel, so i no longer have to do annoying workarounds for specific situations. Apart from this really annoying compensation stuff live is fine for my needs and they better do not put some more bells and whistles on top before fixing the real issues correctly.

[ferranastals]

Too late.
I made the switch to Bitwig this year and I won't look back.

[Jolaff]

Too late.
I made the switch to Bitwig this year and I won't look back.

Liar.

[pdxindy]

I've never understood the rave about Bitwig's modulation or calls for "native LFO" in Live. All my plugins that benefit from such have it, and so do Live's own devices. And automation or recording the parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of time anyway.

Have you ever tried Bitwig's modulation system?

With Bitwig's own devices, modulation can be per voice. (Can't do that with automation).

Bitwig automation can be at audio rate... so you can do FM (Try that with automation).

I use Bazille a lot. Certain parameters cannot be modulated. So in Bitwig it is easy to add an envelope modulator and control such parameters as part of the sound in realtime (cannot do that with automation)

Various other plugin synths are similar. Also, plenty of FX do not extensive modulation built-in.

[ferranastals]

Too late.
I made the switch to Bitwig this year and I won't look back.

Liar.

Usually.

[.jon]

I've never understood the rave about Bitwig's modulation or calls for "native LFO" in Live. All my plugins that benefit from such have it, and so do Live's own devices. And automation or recording the parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of time anyway.

Well I guess if you never understood it, everyone else is probably over thinking it .... good that you've never missed it though. put another tick in your personal 'win' column

I'll get a message out on the wire, let everyone know that recording some parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of the time anyway, so we can put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

This sounds great! But then you go right ahead and totally contradict yourself

seems your idea of LFO and modulation is vanilla, to put it mildly.

LFOs are the most vanilla modulation possible indeed, but it seems that you highly overrate the musical usefulness of periodical modulation provided by the DAW.

I don't presume to speak for every benefit of native LFO's etc, but it's not something that is simply replicated by have a few dedicated LFOs in your synth to make a 'wub wub' bassline, nor is automation recording of parameter tweaks superior or even a viable alternative... if your uses for modulation go beyond vanilla anyway.

think LFOs modulating LFOs, at rates that are divisions of one another ... that is possibly the most basic thing you could start doing with native modulators, and it's already opening a whole new scope of sound design and composition.

The whole, massive wave of Eurorack development and participation by ever expanding segments of the music community is in large part because of the results one can achieve when being able to mix and cross-mix various types of modulators, to modulate each other, and sequencers, and sequencers that interact with the modulation .... people enjoy generating these kind of systems and the sounds and sequences they can produce.

if you don't get it, that's really a good bonus for you, because for people like me who want to stick with ableton it really sucks not having it built in.[/quote]

My main and by far the most used virtual instrument is Reaktor Blocks.. Yeah, I'm MODULATING THE MODULATORS and far beyond. Processing CV is the whole thing about modular (and all your examples display a truly and proudly shallow understanding of what actually can be achieved with it), but both blocks and hw modulars take it to a completely different level than a simple stinking DAW LFO could.

So I still don't see the huge benefit of having one in the DAW. You'd still be limited to really basic periodic modulation with limited musical use, and certainly not something that wouldn't be trivially easy to do already with plugins, except that no DAW will ever reach the depth and richness of possibilities of something like Reaktor... or say, Max for Live,lol. Or just drawing automation lanes, which in most cases yields usable results in a fast and easily controlled way.

[mcbpete]

LFOs are the most vanilla modulation possible indeed, but it seems that you highly overrate the musical usefulness of periodical modulation provided by the DAW.

A few years ago I did a track using nothing but LFOs to control the notes played, the automation of all the effects, the volume of each instrument. Not a single note here was 'hand' composed but used LFOs controlling LFOs controlling synths & effects - https://terminalwindow.bandcamp.com/tra ... ter-window

So aye, LFO modulation can indeed be a useful composition tool

[Daags]

I've never understood the rave about Bitwig's modulation or calls for "native LFO" in Live. All my plugins that benefit from such have it, and so do Live's own devices. And automation or recording the parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of time anyway.

Well I guess if you never understood it, everyone else is probably over thinking it .... good that you've never missed it though. put another tick in your personal 'win' column

I'll get a message out on the wire, let everyone know that recording some parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of the time anyway, so we can put an end to this nonsense once and for all.

This sounds great! But then you go right ahead and totally contradict yourself

seems your idea of LFO and modulation is vanilla, to put it mildly.

LFOs are the most vanilla modulation possible indeed, but it seems that you highly overrate the musical usefulness of periodical modulation provided by the DAW.

I don't presume to speak for every benefit of native LFO's etc, but it's not something that is simply replicated by have a few dedicated LFOs in your synth to make a 'wub wub' bassline, nor is automation recording of parameter tweaks superior or even a viable alternative... if your uses for modulation go beyond vanilla anyway.

think LFOs modulating LFOs, at rates that are divisions of one another ... that is possibly the most basic thing you could start doing with native modulators, and it's already opening a whole new scope of sound design and composition.

The whole, massive wave of Eurorack development and participation by ever expanding segments of the music community is in large part because of the results one can achieve when being able to mix and cross-mix various types of modulators, to modulate each other, and sequencers, and sequencers that interact with the modulation .... people enjoy generating these kind of systems and the sounds and sequences they can produce.

if you don't get it, that's really a good bonus for you, because for people like me who want to stick with ableton it really sucks not having it built in.

My main and by far the most used virtual instrument is Reaktor Blocks.. Yeah, I'm MODULATING THE MODULATORS and far beyond. Processing CV is the whole thing about modular (and all your examples display a truly and proudly shallow understanding of what actually can be achieved with it), but both blocks and hw modulars take it to a completely different level than a simple stinking DAW LFO could.

you seem to be misrepresenting me .... first of all, I did not intend to give an exhaustive list of the modulation possibilities within Eurorack, perhaps I should have gone to greater lengths to make sure that was better understood. I merely alluded to the popularity of Eurorack as some kind of confirmation that 'modulation is good' and very popular right now, as you seem to be attesting yourself with Reaktor Blocks being your 'most used plugin, by far'. As far as a 'stinking DAW LFO' ... again, seems a bit willfully disingenuous of you to frame it in such a negative way in the context of Reaktor BLOCKS and Eurorack operating to the fullest of their modulation capabilities. I thought I made it explicitly clear I was just giving possibly the most basic application of the most basic modulator within a DAW. In the context of what you initially said on this topic:

I've never understood the rave about Bitwig's modulation or calls for "native LFO" in Live. All my plugins that benefit from such have it, and so do Live's own devices. And automation or recording the parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of time anyway.

your ideas of modulation seemed rather rudimentary and appeared to set a very, very low bar. Perhaps, for the benefit of informed discourse, you should have mentioned that your most used plugin is in fact a fully fledged modular environment, now with added Eurorack-esque 'Blocks' modules
'hey you guys, I don't get why y'all keep asking for native modulators' ... meanwhile, he's glued to his Reaktor Blocks patches

Furthermore, and I would have thought this excruciatingly obvious, no one is suggesting native modulators like LFOs are going to mean the DAW will compete with Eurorack or Reaktor Blocks in terms of the full gammit of modular possibilities ..... but for someone who seems such an ardent fan of Reaktor Blocks, it's a little strange that you have this obstinate attitude towards people wanting to enhance the sound design and compositional possibilities of their DAW + plugin library by feature-requesting native modulators for use with the countless plugins that don't already have their own equivalent modulation built in.

Reaktor and Reaktor Blocks are well and good, as are the multiples of modular analog gear I also own ... I'm not a stranger to CV. but I have plenty of software that isn't modular, and will benefit tremendously by my most used DAW having a greater (i.e cpu efficient) ability to offer these modulators.

At any rate, what it really boils down to is, it's a top 10, top 5 feature request and has been consistently for damn near the entire lifespan of the software. And it may not even happen. But its prominence on the wishlist is absolutely valid and warranted.

So I still don't see the huge benefit of having one in the DAW. You'd still be limited to really basic periodic modulation with limited musical use, and certainly not something that wouldn't be trivially easy to do already with plugins, except that no DAW will ever reach the depth and richness of possibilities of something like Reaktor... or say, Max for Live,lol. Or just drawing automation lanes, which in most cases yields usable results in a fast and easily controlled way.

...ok pal. so, what it boils down to is, you've created two extreme ends of the modulation spectrum ...on the extremely high end, unless it can do modulation like Reaktor Blocks and/or Reaktor Blocks in tandem with Eurorack can do modulation, it's not worth doing. and on the extremely low end, most plugins already have a couple lfo's anyway to do the 'wub wub' and so on, or you can 'just draw automation lanes', so who needs native modulation ...

I guess you just have a really limited imagination if you can't envision what can be done in between those two extremes with native modulation in conjunction with any plugin.

[Daags]

LFOs are the most vanilla modulation possible indeed, but it seems that you highly overrate the musical usefulness of periodical modulation provided by the DAW.

A few years ago I did a track using nothing but LFOs to control the notes played, the automation of all the effects, the volume of each instrument. Not a single note here was 'hand' composed but used LFOs controlling LFOs controlling synths & effects - https://terminalwindow.bandcamp.com/tra ... ter-window

So aye, LFO modulation can indeed be a useful composition tool

sounds like a really cool and interesting composition ... but much of it seems to be hidden away behind that reverb and whatever's feeding it ... i think if you made an alternate mix with the reverb dialed back, and some of the other elements brought to the front, it would be better .... better for my tastes anyway, hehe....

compositionally though, yes, exactly, imaginative use of even the humble LFO can yield grand results

[pdxindy]

My main and by far the most used virtual instrument is Reaktor Blocks.. Yeah, I'm MODULATING THE MODULATORS and far beyond. Processing CV is the whole thing about modular (and all your examples display a truly and proudly shallow understanding of what actually can be achieved with it), but both blocks and hw modulars take it to a completely different level than a simple stinking DAW LFO could.

An LFO is one building block in complex chains of modulators... if all you had was an LFO it would be a lot less useful.

Also, Bitwig integrates with hardware better than most any other DAW. The sync and timing is really tight and you can make whatever complex CV out you want with Bitwig modulation.

[antic604]

I've never understood the rave about Bitwig's modulation or calls for "native LFO" in Live. All my plugins that benefit from such have it, and so do Live's own devices. And automation or recording the parameter tweaking is superior 99.8% of time anyway.

What?! Firstly, Bitwig's modulators cover much more ground than just basic LFOs which can in no way be replaced by "automation or recording the parameter tweaking". In addition to various types of LFOs, yhey include ADS(H)R envelopes, step sequencers, envelope & waveform followers, key trackers, etc. All of them can cross-modulate all the others, can be routed through mathematical functions, etc. There's very little you CAN'T do with them and they can breathe new life into otherwise static patches or VSTs that don't have enough LFOs or their LFOs can't modulate certain parameters.

You can actually build a synth using just the DC Offset device and modulators, like so:


So, coming back to Live, YOU might not see the need to have LFO included in native devices, but many of us do see it. It's a step it right direction, even if that would be a fraction of what Bitwig has it would already be very useful.

[jonljacobi]

• M4L was always a problem for me... it was unstable and used too much CPU. I prefer Bitwig's modulation by a big margin.
  
  Editing audio is far better in Bitwig than in Live.
  
  Want to add a bit of random velocity variation to some midi notes in Live... ugh. Bitwig it is easy.
  
  Have 6 identical clips in Live and want to edit them? Gotta do it one by one. Bitwig you can edit them all at once together.
  
  Bitwig can have groups in groups... oops... no can do in Live
  
  Multiple projects open at once
  
  Bitwig works very well with hardware... both midi and CV and with excellent sync and timing (again no need for M4L)
  
  Clip launcher and Arrange visible together.
  
  and of course MPE support! Still not quite complete but much better than the big fat zero of Live (which cannot even record polyAT)

There are things I like better about Live... but Live 10 would have to be an amazing update for me to consider it. I don't believe that will happen.

What exactly is better about editing audio in BWS? For simple time correction it sure as hell isn't better. You have to insert stretch markers manually three at a time. And why separate onset and stretch markers? BWS has in-clip slicing but that's about all I can think off. It doesn't handle stretched and non-stretched audio played together well either. BWS has many fine points, but Live makes the simple audio stuff much easier and faster. Not to mention the recording workflow.

[JonSolo]

Really?

Take this to a Bitwig discussion, or an alternate Live discussion. This is thread about evidence of Ableton Live 10 and ABSOLUTELY SANS CATS!

I hate cats. Allergic and stuff.